My guest on this episode is Alie B. Gorrie, an actor and advocate who's on a mission to create a more inclusive world.
Through her work on stage as a performer, as an inclusion consultant for theatres and as the co-producer of ABLE: a series which is now streaming on Amazon Prime Video, Alie B. is lovingly showing the entertainment industry what's going right when it comes to 360 degree disability inclusion (for artists and audiences) and where there is room for improvement.
In the spirit of inclusion, I have included a transcript of this episode below for the benefit of anyone who might not be able to listen to this podcast.
Side note: In our conversation, we talk about ABLE, the docu-series which highlights the powerful artistic contributions being made by people with disabilities. At the beginning of October 2019, ABLE: a series is available to watch in the United States. If you live in other regions, you'll need to search your local Amazon Prime platform. It's not accessible on the Australian site right now, but hopefully it will be before long. I do recommend you check the show's website to find out the most current information whenever you listen to this episode.
Find and follow Alie B. online:
aliebgorrie.com & alie b.'s instagram | ableaseries.com & able: a series instagram
Links from this episode:
Red Mountain Theatre Company's Human Rights New Works Festival
Alie B.'s blog A Cockeyed Optimist
Peter Shepherd - Ep #16 Running Towards the Bang
Jen Waldman - Ep #4 Discovering My WHY Changed Everything
Able: A Series' co-creator Kallen Blair
Alie B. on The Dreaded Question Podcast with Lili Torre
LEAD Conference - Leadership Exchange in Arts and Disability
Transcript of this episode:
Matthew Carey
Hi Alie B., and welcome to Studio Time.
Alie B. Gorrie
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
Matthew
We talked a little bit before we started recording and I'm wondering about whether it's helpful to ask you to tell me about who you are and what you do. So I thought I would take it different tack this time. I'm wondering if you could tell me how your mom would introduce you to me.
Alie B.
Oh, my gosh, well, she would introduce me to you in a very southern accent. First of all, I'm from Alabama. So just picture that. She always is just dressed to the nines.
I believe she would say that I'm an actor, living in New York City, who is working on a project, a new series called ABLE that highlights disability inclusion in the arts. And that I love musical theatre. That's exactly what my mom would say.
Matthew
Does your mom love music theatre as well?
Alie B.
She does. She's such a supporter and such a fan. Both of my parents, my mom and dad, don't miss a show to this day, like they'll fly to New York, for sometimes I think the silliest things. I'm like "you guys, no, no, no, you can miss this show" and they will not. So they're very, very supportive, which I appreciate more than I can say.
Matthew
You grew up in Alabama, what are some of the biggest differences between living in New York now versus where you grew up?
Alie B.
I grew up in Birmingham. So I'm lucky that Birmingham is the biggest city and the city with the most going on. So I grew up in a great arts community, which was very, very lucky. New York and Alabama do differ vastly, though. In New York, I have so much more independence because of public transit. I can get around without having to feel like I need to ask for a ride. We'll get into this later, but I'm visually impaired. I know you know that. So driving is not my strong suit.
Matthew
Yeah.
Alie B.
New York. It's typical things. You know, like if you need sparkling water and batteries at midnight, you can get them, you know, random things like that. But other than that, you know, there's just a lot going on here. So many resources in the arts and culture. In Birmingham we still have great... I'm a big fan of my hometown. But New York is just like that times 200.
Matthew
Are you a different person in New York than what you are at home in Birmingham?
Alie B.
I love that question.
I do feel like I have a little bit more confidence in New York City just because that comes with the independence I feel and then not needing to depend on anyone which I love. I'm just a very independent person and so I do feel that way. I still feel like in Birmingham I'm my outgoing, silly, almost too spunky for the South self.
That that part of me doesn't change. But the confidence that comes with just knowing that I can get all my needs met in this city is really exhilarating to me.
Matthew
That whole New York idea of 'if you can make it there...'
Alie B.
Yes, you'll make it anywhere.
Matthew
I'm in Australia, so my American history is not perfect. But when I hear Birmingham, Alabama, I think of a place that not so long ago, had some struggles with racial diversity. And I wonder whether the history of the city there has had any resonance on your interest on diversity and inclusion as an adult.
Alie B.
It has, it really has and especially the more I'm diving into this field, it continues to be a topic I research, I read about I learn as much as I can about. The past few years I have really looked forward to going back I work with a theatre in Birmingham that has a Human Rights New Works Festival every year. They strive for Birmingham to sort of reclaim itself because it does not have a beautiful past, it does not have a nice, kind tolerant past. So we're repairing that through the arts and through pieces of theatre that are more than just a piece of theatre you go to to forget about life for a second, there are pieces of theatre that challenge the audiences to think about deeper issues. So I am very interested in that. And I do enjoy coming back home to work on pieces that delve a little deeper because it's what our city needs the most. So yeah, I love that. Thank you for asking that question. That's great.
Matthew
The Human Rights program that's at the theatre there, is that something that's has been around for a while and how has that inspired you?
Alie B.
Oh no. It's a new development. There's a regional theatre in Birmingham called Red Mountain Theatre Company, and I grew up training there and I credit them for so much of my own artistic development. They have always been members of the National Alliance of musical theatre here in the States and they've been champions for new works for a very long time. But a city like Birmingham doesn't see a lot of you know, shows like 'Fun Home' or shows like...
I mean, even next to normal it when they first did it there it was for one weekend instead of a month, like all their other shows, because they just didn't know how audiences would respond. And what's really exciting is I got to actually be at the first festival was two years ago, so very recently, and these shows were selling out and they were on issues like having a transgender child in the family, autism, race relations, things like that. And these shows sold out and there were panels and discussions afterwards. It's sad. I mean, not sad because it's happening but it is a new festival in the city.
I think it's exciting because theatre is showing the city that they're ready to handle it and they're ready to take on these topics and really dive in.
Matthew
Yeah. And I guess even if it starts with only a smallish audience, it shows and demonstrates that this is possible and models how for other people doesn't it?
Alie B.
Exactly. And sometimes I think you just need that one person to go out on a limb and say we're going to do this risky festival that's a week long and try. And they tried and it worked.
Matthew
Talking about theatre companies to do things a little bit differently. Let's jump around. I read on your blog, which is called A Cockeyed Optimist, you talked about your experience in Sonoma, and it sounded like there was a really fantastic theatre experience there for you. Could tell me a little bit about that?
Alie B.
Absolutely. So in Sonoma, California, there is a theatre company called Transcendence Theatre Company. And this company is the definition of a mission driven company, a company that hires artists who are people first, who care so much more about the world and what the world needs, than their own needs.
It was a really incredible experience out there and they do revue style shows they had their first musical this summer, actually, because the theatre is actually outside in a historic State Park in a vineyard. But this theatre has such a dedication to service before all the shows the actors are working, there's pre show events, there's classes that they're teaching the kids in the community, there's a pre show picnic, like all of us are out in the fields like working and interacting with the audience, but then it makes the time on stage so, so special. Transcendence is a truly truly completely supportive, artistic community.
I remember - so I can't see in the dark or sometimes backstage, so I either have to have someone with me or a lot of glow tape. But when you're in an outdoor venue, one that's been around since, you know, the Dark Ages, it's rocky and gravelly, and it's scary. But there were people who would, you know, miss their entrance to help me find mine. It was just amazing how selfless some of those artists were. It was a really special summer.
Matthew
It strikes me that when you're in Sonoma and you're working with the transcendence Theatre Company, you're all there in a space that is safe. You know that you that you're there to do what you're going to do, and it might be a different experience than trying to be working on a project as an actor or a theatre-maker in New York, where there is such a level of competition. Also just the pace of life is probably going to be a lot faster and who's got time to wait around and help somebody else.
Alie B.
Exactly. And one thing I really admire about this company is every day, before rehearsal, starts with something called an alignment, which is led by one person from the cast, creative team or administrative offices etc. One person leads the entire group, artists and creatives and admin, in a 45 minute long exercise. So maybe one morning someone would teach everyone yoga. One morning someone would do a creative writing workshop. One morning, we would all walk around with pieces of paper taped to our back and people were write compliments on them.
There were these different activities and we would do all of this before rehearsal. And it's amazing how Transcendence devotes that time to community and then the rehearsals. You can learn an entire show in two days if you have that kind of spirit that's already been built. It's really beautiful.
Matthew
Yeah, that's fascinating. And so are there any ideas or practices that you experienced at Transcendence that you have taken with you back to New York City?
Alie B.
Definitely the alignments, you know, starting every day. It goes back to a lot of things that Jen Walden and Peter Shepherd talk about (who I know thave been on your show) about morning routines. Which I struggle with but I work on them and modify them often. But to find that time before you dive into any kind of artistic work to do one thing that grounds you, and one thing that brings you back to "who's it for" because if you're out of touch with that, I think the rest of your work as an artist is going to suffer.
Matthew
Speaking about your work as an artist, you shared a piece of your recent work with me that I watched this morning, a preview of your your series ABLE but before we get into that, I wanted to ask you one of the questions that you ask on that show. Alie B., why are you an artist?
Alie B.
Oh that's so sweet, that you asked that back! Oh, wow, that's so wild when you have your own question asked back to you Oh, how the tables have turned.
I am an artist to shed light on untold stories, untold experiences, to bring optimism to this field, and especially the city. And I am an artist because I think being an artist and being a change maker are one and the same. So if you want to make change in any field, I think Seth Godin talks about this too, about in the book Linchpin. You have to be an artist, even if you're a business person. So I think artists and change makers are one and the same and because I seek to make some big changes, especially at the moment. Being an artist is is exactly that.
Matthew
It's your way of doing that.
Alie B.
Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.
Matthew
You mentioned your vision impairment. I know that in the Alie B. story, there's a character who was really significant for you at one time. So could you tell me a little bit about Amy Murphy?
Alie B.
Yes, yes. Amy Murphy. And then also I have to add to that because there's another one who was another version of Amy too, named Keith Cromwell. Amy Murphy and Keith were the two folks in my life, when I was very young, I think Keith first brought it up when I was 10, but I didn't have the words. He told me I needed to figure out how to talk to directors about my vision impairment, but I was a 10 year old kid, and it was a final callback for an Annie audition. So I wasn't feeling like I wanted to find the words at that moment. But when I was 12, my teacher Amy said, "I know people have talked to you about your vision impairment before". I performed a lot as a kid growing up, since I was like five I've been in theatre class.
So Amy finally at 12 said "People are asking you about it and you have to know what to say. It's not something that you need to hide behind."
And as a 12 year old kid, I didn't want to be different. I didn't want to have to speak up and say, "Excuse me, I actually can't see from this spot in dance class." "I actually can't read the sheet music unless it's enlarged." I was just scared because I didn't want to be a burden.
And she taught me that it is not being a burden, it is standing up for yourself. She was my voice teacher at the time. I don't know if I said that. But for a week when I was 12, she would come to my house, she would march over there and we would have sort of a boot camp on how to become well spoken and well versed in my own story and my own situation. She would teach me how to say, "I have low vision" or "I am visually impaired and when you, Mr. Choreographer, say to switch lines, I'm going to stay in the front row so I can have the best experience."
I would have to sort of learn to write scripts for myself because in the moment, if a director looks at you and says, "Why are you holding the page so close to your face?" It's hard to have the words because your emotions take over and you feel very vulnerable.
So Amy helped me in that awkward teenage time to have a script and and it really did feel like a script. And it still sometimes does, especially if you just had a really bad day and someone sees you on the subway and says, "Why don't you try glasses, you're looking so close."
It happens all the time. But some days, it does feel more like a script because you just feel a little vulnerable. And some days you're like, you want to have a conversation. I would love to talk to you about it. But Amy Murphy was the first person to really teach me how to speak up for myself.
Then Keith back at Red Mountain Theatre, who is still one of my biggest champions today. Both of them are, but Keith was the one who helped me really put it in action. We would be
in rehearsal for a show that he was directing, and he was like, "What are you going to say?" And as I would say, "Yes sir. What I'm going to say is I need this script a little bit larger, like a size 20 point font, please."
So he really nailed down the point that if I didn't speak up, there would be no accommodations.
Matthew
Yeah. And I know that mutual friend Jen Waldman speaks about this idea that I think that she got from Brene Brown. But to be clear, is to be kind.
Alie B.
Clear is kind and unclear is unkind.
Matthew
Yes. So not only are you helping yourself get the best experience you can, you're helping other people know what you need. Quite often, they want to help you, but they don't know how or they don't know how to talk about it. So if you've got words for it, then you're contributing a lot to the situation and making it better.
Alie B.
Right, and it's okay that others might be uncomfortable around disability because not every kid with a disability has that mentor that teaches them how to be their own self advocate. It makes sense that sometimes it's hard to talk about disability, but I'm really happy that I learned how to be clear and how to state exactly what I needed. I had a list for a while, like a running list of all of my accommodations. So I would know, and not be hesitant in the moment. I was able to help other people help me.
Matthew
Yeah, that's great.
So let's jump ahead. Tell me a little bit about the ABLE series and what was the catalyst for it being created?
Alie B.
I love this question. ABLE was created because my college friend Kallen and I had seen some theatre together that had really explored disability in a way that finally felt authentic. We saw a show together, called Sam's Room and it was about a teen with nonverbal autism and it was a musical. I have known Kallen since college, but we weren't super close. I didn't know the ins and outs of her world. We had just become closer friends in New York, and after curtain call, she was tearing up and she said Alie B., that's the first time I saw my brother represented on stage.
And I...had no words. I was so moved by by her response and at the show itself, and at the way that finally we were starting to see disability portrayed in a way that wasn't dehumanising...that wasn't a stereotype, that wasn't an archetype. We began having these conversations about it off and on, and off and on, off and on. And then that summer when I was at Transcendence last year, she was on another theatre contract, I believe in Boston.
She wrote me an email that said, "I have this idea, but I need your help. What if we put together some kind of series discussing disability in the arts, disability and inclusion, and when it's done really, really well, and the people that really bring it to life?"
Of course, I said "Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Sign me up." So once we both got back, I think for a month, we barely left our workstations. We went into it very, very fast. Most people would probably take four or five months and really plan out a trajectory. But we, maybe in a month, had a crowdfunding campaign going. We were writing letters, we were seeking sponsors. We were out in the musical theatre and theatre communities in New York, talking about it, talking about we wanted to do. We decided that we wanted to have a documentary style series and each episode would feature someone from TV, film or theatre because those areas also have some work to do in the representation arena. (Yeah, no one is nailing it quite yet in the entertainment industry, but we're getting there.)
We pooled together all of our resources. I've worked with different disability organizations in New York for a bit and have friends who are actors with disabilities. So I was able to pull in that side. Kallen is truly one of the most amazing business women ever. I always joke that Kallen's the business guy, and I'm the ideas and the artsy side. Kallen always has to rein me in and pull me back. I get very excited, but that's sort of how it started. And we originally had 10 episodes, but we narrowed them down to eight. And at first, we thought the episodes would go for an hour when we shot them. We shot a long time for each episode, but we realised that anytime we talk about diversity and inclusion, there's a really fine line between wanting to educate and empower people and hitting them over the head with facts and figures and making them feel like "Okay, Okay, enough already, we get it." So, we settled on 15 minute mini episodes for each guest. And so that way people are getting an idea. They're getting something kind of spicy and different every time. But they're able to take a little bite sized chunk and say, "Oh, that's what it means for this community." "Oh, this is what it's like in the deaf and hard of hearing community." "Oh, mobility disabilities, that's different."
We shot it and it's been in editing on the cutting room floor for a while just because we had a lot to navigate through. And we're in our final push right now.
Matthew
I've got so many questions about this. Some of them I know the answers to, and others I don't.
I mean, did you and Kallen have a lot of experience making docu-series before you started ABLE?
Alie B.
None of us had done it at all, like zero. Kallen at least - I prefer musical theatre to TV and film. Music and theatre and all that, even though no shade TV and film. Love it. But Kallen has more experience, at least in that area, that medium. So at least she knew folks on the on the production side. But as far as fundraising, creating a business plan, creating a timeline, we were truly faking it till we made it.
Matthew
You had to let it all on the fly. And was it your enthusiasm and your, I guess, passion and dedication to this mission that got you over the line so quickly and enabled you to be able to pull this together?
Alie B.
I really do believe so. Yeah, we were both so fired up about it. That year too was a funny year for me because I worked at a bunch of theatres, and some of them were true beacons for inclusion. I mean, just incredible. And then some I felt were using inclusion as a way to I hate saying this, but it felt a little like "fake woke", if that makes sense. Like they were using their actors with disabilities to promote things without really taking care of their actors with disabilities.
After being a part of experiences like that I had a fire in my gut that could not be quenched. I was just so ready to get this rolling. And we rolled maybe a little too fast. But I think I would do it all again in that nature because we were just going for the goal.
Matthew
And you are getting it done.
Your experience that you just described reminds me of a conversation you had that I listened to when I was doing some research before we spoke. You spoke with Lily Torre on The Dreaded Question podcast. You and she were talking about accessibility in theatre. And I was fascinated. You sort of flipped a switch for me when you talked about that. A lot of theatres are now realising that "yes, we want to be accessible" and they focus a lot on being accessible in the front of house, for the people that come into the theatre.
Tell me about what it means to be accessible to the people that work at the theatre.
Alie B.
Right - from the inside out. Actually, this is a great segue. I just got back from the Kennedy Center's LEAD conference. It's the Leadership Exchange in Arts and Disability, which is the only kind of conference of its kind here in the US. And it is a bunch of theatre professionals and museum professionals, any kind of entertainment industry, entertainment space, you might have front of house, you might have artistic directors, teaching artists, tech, every kind of branch imaginable. We all came together. And it was mind boggling to me because I learned so much. First of all, so I must say that my mind is still very full from that experience. But we talked so much about audience access, and patron access. And there was a lack of discussion in artist access and creative team access.
For example, what if you had a costume designer who was a wheelchair user or a lighting designer, who was hard of hearing? How can we work to make theatre environments inclusive for them so they can apply for jobs? How do we write those kinds of job descriptions? How do we use inclusive language?
Front of House, things were great, and I feel ready to go to any theatre and just give the front of house an accessibility makeover. But from the artist side, which is actually where I have the most expertise, there was not a lot of discussion. So it was very interesting.
Matthew
So even at this conference, there wasn't a lot of conversation about that.
Alie B.
Right. And that's why next year I'm going to apply and hopefully be able to talk about it. To lead a little chat. Just because I think true inclusion is inclusion from the inside out. It's 360 degrees, it's in the admin offices, in the lighting booth in the rehearsal room. I know that that's tricky and in some cases, it's hard with with space constrictions, etc. So I'm not saying anyone is wrong if they can't be 360 degree inclusive, but if that is what they seek, then let's do it.
Matthew
I've heard you say that you're not trying to shame anybody in a situation where there's room for improvement. But like you said, with your mission, you're here to shine a light on situations that people are perhaps not seeing or not looking at, and bringing them forward and saying, "Now that you know this situation is like this, what can we do about it?"
Alie B.
Right, and that's my favourite occurrence. When someone has that light bulb go off. Just the other day I posted something on how to be more accessible on social media. And I had so many people reach out and say, "I had no idea that was even an option to help that way." So it's one of those things where I always say once you know you can't unknown. So it's to plant that accessibility seed, so that whenever folks are navigating their environments, they're navigating through a new lens. Yeah, they're looking at things a little differently.
Matthew
Why don't you tell us about that Instagram hack that, you know, that so many of us are unaware of, because it's just not passing through our consciousness at the moment.
Alie B.
Right? It's actually a Facebook hack too - adding alternate text to your photos. So if someone is blind or low vision, and they are navigating social media, which guess what - they do! - they will have most likely a screen reader on their phone that is turned on to help them navigate their phone. And the screen reader is able to read alternate text. So they will be scrolling Instagram and their screen reader might say, because maybe they're low vision like me and they get some things but not the big picture.
The screen reader might say, "A girl stands on the top of a mountain. There are two blue birds in the corner, and green grass below her feet. The sun is shining and she's wearing a hot pink dress."
You know, who knows what it's going to say? But it fills in some of the details for folks who might miss them. And it allows social media and images to be accessible. It's just like audio description in a movie or a show. But it's photo description.
Matthew
Well, you know, until I saw you write about that, it had never occurred to me that our move as a society to social media could be exclusionary to a whole range of people.
Alie B.
To a whole group of people, yeah.
Matthew
And as we move our lives, some parts of our lives are experienced almost more online that they are offline. If I'm spending so much time sharing my story through Instagram, which people do, then if there's somebody that might want to share in that, but isn't able to engage with it for various reasons, then unwittingly I'm excluding them. And as I'm speaking about this, I'm even thinking about the podcast.
The podcast is well and good until I'm reaching somebody that has a hearing disability. I haven't really addressed that as well as I could. I do show notes for the podcast, but transcripts are something that I can see even more value in.
Alie B.
Oh, that's exciting. It was really neat, too, being at that conference. Because truly every lecture we went to, or every session or breakout group had every single accommodation. And even me who is pretty well versed in accessibility these days would go in and think, oh, wow, I never thought about that. Or Wow, they have ASL and captioning here. They have so many options.
I'm always learning and that's what I think is exciting about accessibility and this field. No one can really claim they're an expert because tomorrow, there could be new technology that will wipe all the old stuff to the curb. So it's a field where there's always room for questions and always room for growth. And there's always going to be new technology so we're never done exploring the accessibility world.
Matthew
Talking about media, there's theatre and there's film and TV. Why is representation important?
Alie B.
Representation is so important because I believe from a young, young age (and now even though it makes me sad, even younger) we are exposed to media. And it is a place where we have such an incredible opportunity to see the world see other people's experience, see the world through other people's eyes - whether they be vision impaired or not - and it allows us to learn about people who are different than ourselves, maybe even start to build some empathy bridges. But we can't do that unless we see people reflected in our media, that are mirrors of the world around us.
So I think representation is so important because the media has this ability to make an impact on young minds and how cool to have the next generation say, "Oh, I see myself represented here. This is a safe place for me." And it's maybe just "I see myself. How cool I love this character." And then they have someone that shares a life story shares a background, but maybe it's, "Oh, I see someone on TV. Maybe I can do that. Maybe it's sports, maybe it's theatre, maybe it's anything...but I think it's a mirror and it has way more power than we think.
Matthew
Yes. I'm a white male. So there are plenty of those on the screen and on stage. But I even noticed as an Australian, that often when I go to the theatre or watch something at the cinema, it's often American. A lot of the musicals and plays that we see in Australia are performed with American accents. I respond really differently and I really notice it when I hear an Australian accent on stage. And it's not until I hear it, that I realise that I've kind of been missing it.
I think that's one of the things that is interesting to consider as somebody who doesn't really identify as being in a minority. I don't know what I'm not seeing yet sometimes.
Alie B.
Yeah, I love that you just said that. I had a conversation with Lili Torre this week. She's a true soul sister of mine, and she sends me these texts when she has her own little inclusion light bulbs go off.
She said she was watching a show on Netflix. And she saw in the scene there was a wheelchair user. She saw this dude in the wheelchair and she was so curious the whole time. She was like, is he going to be a big plot point? What's his story? What's going to happen to him? And it turns out, he was just chilling in the scene. He was doing extra work.
But she, without having conversations, like the conversations we have together, she wouldn't have even thought like, hmm, you know, I didn't even realise I was missing that until I saw it. It's a similar thing to what you were saying. I didn't even realise how absent that was until I recognise it was there.
Matthew
Talk to me about how people with disabilities have traditionally been represented in stories and on screen.
Alie B.
Yes, a lot of times folks with disabilities are represented in a way that is either...
[Side note, I can't wait till you get to watch some more episodes of ABLE because you get a big dose of this.]
...In the past folks with disabilities have been represented as archetypes, as stereotypes, as animalistic. A lot of folks that I know who are little people will be asked to do some things that are just fantastical and fairy tale creature-like. They're people!
A lot of folks with disabilities are represented like this sad, tragic character that maybe one day crosses that glorious finish line and beats the odds. And then the whole community is like raising them up. And it's the story of "look at this hero" and while I do think folks with disabilities have superpowers and they're super cool, that's not all they are. So a lot of times we get that story. A lot of times what we see is just the sad person who has a disability who can't do things. We don't see a lot of disability represented in media of people who can - and again, if we do it's that hero mentality.
So those are sort of the ways that it's been represented in the past. And one of my favourite things that I love to discuss with people is what if the cashier in the scene just happened to be an amputee? Or what if the main character is going bowling with some of his friends and one of his friends is blind? Like it's not commented on, or made such a big deal. It's just included. And that, I think is such a big representation goal, but it's not really what's happening too much at the moment.
Matthew
In the trailer for ABLE, I heard that the disabled community is the largest minority in the world.I have heard that 20 to 25% of our population is living with a disability of some description, but that people with disabilities are only make up 2% of the speaking images you see on TV, and of those 2% of characters 95% of them are played by non disabled actors.
Alie B.
Yep. If that statistic alone doesn't make you want to work towards change in the industry, I don't know what will.
Matthew
I tried to reconcile that with other changes in the industry. And I was thinking that if you think back to Shakespeare's day, I mean, I'm not a theatre history major, but I know that in Shakespeare's day, he had male actors play the male and female roles because females weren't on stage. And then you jump forward and you think about 20th century film, you know, for a long time in Hollywood films, there weren't a lot of African American characters, and when they started introducing them, they didn't necessarily play a large range of roles.
Alie B.
Archetypes again. Yeah, similar.
Matthew
And I know certainly in entertainment there used to be performers at the beginning of last century that thought it would be okay for white people to wear makeup and represent themselves as African Americans. And we now acknowledge that that's not right.
Alie B.
Right. But we don't acknowledge what people in the disability community call "crip face" or "cripping up." When able bodied actors play... I don't even like the word able bodied. But when actors without disabilities, play characters with disabilities, it's no different in my opinion.
Matthew
The thing is that if your eyes aren't open to that, you might not notice it. And so without bringing shame to it, I've heard you talk about "The Upside," the film with Kevin Hart, where Bryan Cranston plays a men in a wheelchair.
What is it like for somebody that has that personal experience and is trained as an actor to see somebody represent their type who hasn't had that lived experience?
Alie B.
Not good.
I will tell you it is not a good experience. I'm in contact with plenty of actors with disabilities. And "The Upside" was sort of the latest controversy in our groups and in our discussions, but it is such a slap in the face to trained professionals who are devoting their life to creating art. To try and to give back to a community that that has probably really, really helped them and build them up. I think theatre saves a lot of our artists with disabilities and gives them the voice they need and you know, gives them that ability to tell their own story and tell other stories. So then to see that story that you've lived and you breathed and that is pretty close to your heart (even though yes, no two disabilities are the same) but to see someone in it (just say it's in a chair), see someone else in a chair, who doesn't actually have that lived experience... It hurts. There's no other thing to say then it's hurtful.
Of course, you could talk about box office and tickets, all the stuff all you want. But at the end of the day, I think you have to think about people. Again with the Brene Brown, but she always says "people, people, people."
The people who are not being represented who have the talent who have the skill, that's a blow to them.
Matthew
Changing direction for a moment...
Alie B.
[laughter] On a different note!
Matthew
We're coming at it from a different angle. Creating this docu-series, I started thinking about the idea of permission. And I wonder if you could give me an example of a situation where you needed to ask somebody else's permission in order to move ahead with this project. And also a time when you needed to gain your own permission to move ahead with the project.
Alie B.
Oh, wow. Well, I will say it's hard because I feel like we just went like little bulls going into the bull-racing. You know, I always think about the bull running towards the, what's it called? The guy with the...
Matthew
The Toreador?
Alie B.
Yes, there we go. Because that's how we were. So we didn't really ask for a lot of permission, we just put our heads forward and charged.
But what's been a real tricky task for us is after the filming, after the shooting is done, we were pulled in a lot of different directions of like, "You guys should get an agent to represent this," "You should send it to this distributor in LA," "You should send this to this distributor." And we really sat on our hands a lot because we were trying to ask other people permission to take our work, maybe even to a level that we wouldn't have had as much control over.
We we were trying to ask for permission for others to continue what we had started, and we realised that luckily Amazon has this great way that you can really promote your own work. If you've done the work and you've you've put the effort in, gone through a series of steps, and we realised, you know, we want a platform that we are in control over. We, of course, we're asking Amazon for permission. But that is giving us some sense of agency with our own project, and we're not giving it away.
So as far as permission goes, that's been kind of the hardest thing because once we were all done, we wanted permission to take it to different places, permission to even go the film festival route, which we did. Permission to find an agent, which we don't think is the best choice for us right now.
Little things like that. And then as far as permission with ourselves, reframe that second question, one more time for me.
Matthew
I imagined that you faced obstacles along the way. Even as you are moving full steam ahead. And I wondered what were some of the obstacles that you throw up for yourself? That you had to navigate?
Alie B.
Oh, yes. I think both of us, my partner Kallen and I, are both go getters like we want to get it all done. We want to be the leader. We both are such leaders that we have to both really work on delegating, on being smart about who's taking what step. On not rushing and listening and making time and space for the other person because we're both again, full steam ahead kind of gals.
So that was a big obstacle, I believe, because our hearts are so in it and we want to do it all really, really fast. Or at least I do, because that's how my brain works. It's always going 100 miles an hour, and I had to work with Kallen and she was always saying, "Wait, just be patient, just give it time, just be patient." So it's more of an internal obstacle.
Also, I think sometimes when you're working in the diversity inclusion space, you feel like a squeaky wheel a lot. And we talked about this at the conference I was just attending but sometimes that does make you feel a little bit like an obstacle - that constant feeling of too much versus not enough. I believe in inclusion from the inside out, so I'll talk about it until I'm blue in the face. But is this too much? Am I coming on too strong? Do people care? You can play those internal question games all you want. But a lot of times they don't serve you too well.
Matthew
I think I've heard you talk about your background from Alabama. And if you're a southern belle...
Alie B.
A lady. A lady! If you have views, you better not tell them.
Matthew
Yeah, you're encouraged not to be too much. So how do you how do you gauge that? Do you say "Screw it? I'm going to go for and I don't care if I'm too much," or is there a point where you try and and decide "How much can I push before I push people away?"
Alie B.
I think it does take reading the room. I think it does take knowing what kind of space you're in. It does take knowing what kind of people you're collaborating with.
I've been working a little bit these days as a freelance inclusion consultant. So working with different theatre companies on different accessibility initiatives. And even in those spaces, you know, I want to just make over the entire company, but we're just talking about sensory friendly performances.
That's just one example. But I have to really read the room and know how to rein it in for myself, just because I do care so much about it and disability inclusion, especially. I know a bunch of folks in the field who have been doing the work a long time. And sometimes they had been fighting for so long when they talk about it, it can feel the opposite of optimistic. Let's just say that. It can feel sort of like gloom and doom and "we're right, you're wrong."
I always want to leave room for optimism in the conversation, leave room for possibility. And if I take my accessibility temperature and it's getting a little too hot, I have to know when to pull back. And I think I've kind of learned to step out of my own head and see myself having the conversation and to say, "Okay, Alie B. Now it's time that you listen, or switch topics."
Matthew
I think that's a challenge for all of us, especially when we are promoting an idea that is important to us. Knowing how much we can talk about it, know how many times we need to keep saying the same message for it to be heard. Also, knowing when that we're maybe beating a dead horse, and we need to step back and look for another way forward.
Alie B.
Exactly. And also knowing maybe that the person you're talking to is not one of your champions. Maybe they're just someone who's interested, you know, you have to also know sort of where they are, and what they're seeking and who you're seeking to serve, and if those things line up in those conversations. It's fine if they don't, it's totally fine. We can switch topics really fast!
Matthew
Who would you like to see ABLE? Who would you like to reach with the information and the stories that you've collected?
Alie B.
Oh, well, first and foremost, young artists, budding musicians, actors, dancers. Kids who, maybe even their parents, because I work with a bunch of kids with disabilities. Their parents have said, you know, honey, sorry, but this, it's not in the cards for you.
I want those kids to see it. First and foremost, young people, young people, young people. Education is the first step and I think we have to get more young people educated in the arts who have disabilities.
Matthew
In the clip that you sent me. You featured an artist called, Evan Ruggiero, who became an amputee at the age of 19 or so after he had already developed a real passion for theatre and for dancing. He describes how he discovered Peg Leg Bates who was also an amputee, and who was a tap dancer who had been captured on screen decades ago. And it just opened Evan’s eyes to the fact that he could continue dancing.
Alie B.
Right!
Matthew
Sometimes that's all we need. To see one person who says, “You know what, you can still make this happen.” For us to be inspired to do what it takes to work towards our goals and dreams.
Alie B.
Exactly. So that's absolutely the main group I hope sees it, but also, it's universal. While I think people in performing arts spaces will benefit, as in people who work in casting people who work as directors, choreographers, music directors, I think they will all benefit…I think the community at large, being anyone who can lay eyes on it will benefit by learning more about disability in a way that doesn't feel preachy or over educational. That feels just like we're having a cup of coffee and we're asking some questions that you might be scared to walk up to someone with a disability and ask.
So what I really hope is that more than just the arts community sees it because becoming comfortable with disability is all it's going to take to be able to have these kinds of dialogues more often. Then to be able to have folks included more often - to the point where it's not even a big deal, and so revolutionary.
Matthew
I was thinking about the word stereotype before we started speaking, and asking myself why do we have stereotypes? It prompted me to think that often we group people into categories when we don't know them. We don't really know very many details about their story. Or we know one thing about them and we use that to put them into the same category.
Alie B.
To define them.
Matthew
Yeah, when they're actually very different people with very different lived experiences and different backgrounds that got them to that point. I think that what you're doing is super valuable by showing us individual people with stories and letting us get to know them as you as you talk with them. I think that's really fantastic and I think that opens my eyes to new levels of understanding. And something else - as I work to be inclusive, sometimes I hold myself back because I'm scared that I'm going to say the wrong thing or misrepresent myself to them. That is a real fear sometimes, because there are activists for different groups that are so outspoken, and quick to correct people's language, that I don't want to offend. I think that by watching other people have conversations and hearing the language, then you start to familiarize yourself with it.
Alie B.
Right. I've even loved having friends who for a very long time would always kind of dance around the word “disability.” And they would say, “Oh, she's that differently abled girl.”. And now there's this big movement and disability culture to just say the word, say “disability” instead of trying to dance around it. I've loved being in conversations with my friends who now know that and they'll start to say, “Oh, that girl was… She's disabled. She had a disability” and I love it.
I love it because they're getting more comfortable with language, they're getting more comfortable with making a flub and not thinking that they're going to be attacked for it. Because I think that's important. What I strive to bring to the work is optimism into the advocacy space.
Matthew
I think that's really important and very generous of you. There's something I'd like to touch on before we wrap up. And that's showing this idea of if anybody's listening that feels like they're going to be the bull running towards the Matador on their particular project, and they want to get it done. The docu-series that you and Kallen created, ABLE, is going to be distributed on Amazon. Can you explain to me, did you sell the project to Amazon or is the way you're distributing it a bit more like Spotify, where you own the work and you get a percentage of the revenue from the streams.
Alie B.
That's it. That's it. So there's there's two different kinds of sectors and we chose to do it that way, the “Spotify” way, because we wanted to know exactly what was happening.
Especially because this is our first season and we're hoping to have a season two, when we were experimenting with distribution we wanted this first season to be something that was very much within our control and that we could always keep really close tabs on. Not be so quick to try and sell it and get it maybe on a “bigger platform,” but it's still on an incredible incredible space where it can be reached pretty universally. So we're excited about those possibilities.
Matthew
Why Amazon and not YouTube, for example?
Alie B.
There's so much good work happening on Amazon right now. So much work even in the inclusion space but also just people are flocking there for shows. I mean, if Miss Maisel didn't do it alone…
So many people I know are beginning to watch content, rent movies, etc. And we love the quality of the stuff that they produce, even though this is, again, stuff that the that's coming from us. We just love the space. We love the environment. We love their attitudes and we love some of the other artists who are represented there. So it just felt like a better fit.
Still exciting and sort of a buzz, but YouTube sometimes feels a little bit… I could record 16 bars right now and put it on YouTube in 30 minutes, you know, but we wanted to still give it the love and the attention and the importance that deserves. So I wanted to put it on a platform that would respect it for that.
Matthew
And a platform where people go expecting to see things of a certain level of quality.
Alie B.
Right, exciting content.
Matthew
Something that I like about the idea that I could maybe see it on Amazon Prime is that it stands alongside quality content that is maybe thinking about inclusion and accessibility, or maybe it's not. But just by having it there it will be seen by some of the people who need to see it.
Alie B.
And open some doors. Right.
Matthew
Or maybe you watch ABLE and then you go back and watch your next episode of Miss Maisel. And you look and see “Where are they demonstrating their awareness of this and where are they not?”
Alie B.
So that's exciting. Yeah, I never thought of that. But I love thinking about how that would shift the lens in which you view the next show.
Matthew
How has your work in this sector influenced or affected how you think about yourself as a performer and as an actor?
Alie B.
I love this question. It has really created an internal shift for me. And I think for the better, although I'm going through some artistic Growing Pains at the moment, but I think it's okay, sure.
My first few years in New York, I was really lucky - worked a lot and was always auditioning. I was getting up at six every day and sometimes playing the game of “Can I do four (auditions) today?” “ How many can I do?” How many rooms can I get in? How many people can I see?
That really did pay off for me, but in the past few years since my eyes have, I love that we keep on using this eyes open metaphor in this chat because I just laugh about any eye metaphor because of my story. But when I realized that so many audition experiences and so many of my experiences as an actor working for certain companies were really not accessible, it made me hesitant to just continue to go to everything. I began to sort of sift through and begin to really look at the regional companies and their vision and their mission statements and other folks that they're hiring.
Not just say you know I only go to places that do x, y & z, but I have really begun applying that idea of “who is this work going to be for” and “who am I seeking to serve”, and the stories and behind the table etc.
So it's impacted me in the sense that I look at work even - I mean, I'm all about auditioning for Mamma Mia and having a good time with that story - but what is the theatre doing to acknowledge accessibility? It just makes me look at things through that lens. It's exciting to me, I think. Well, at first I was nervous that I was maybe over-limiting myself or not going to enough.
I love it because a lot of the times when I go in auditions with the mindset of maybe having a discussion about access and inclusion, a lot of times it happens. I was in callbacks for this off-Broadway play a few weeks ago and the casting director and I (in the room) had some really open and honest discussions about low vision.
She saw that I had typed up all my sides in 20 point bold font. And she was like, “Oh, I thought I sent you the word document?”
I said, “Oh, you did. But it was copied from a PDF so that you can't enlarge that print. So what I did was typed it all out, had my screen reader read it, and I typed it all out.“
And she said, “Oh, my gosh. That's a lot of steps. And now I know.”
She also did a really great job of, you know, describing who was behind the table. Because when I go in, I can't see who's sitting behind the table. I just see shadows.
She said, “Oh, and to the left is this director and the music director’s at the piano, which is all the way to the right of the room.”
It was exciting to …well… there was no piano. I just said that because most of my auditions are musicals but that was a play. I'm literally just so accustomed to seeing a pianist at the right of the room…
But you know what I mean. She was describing the folks there. After she did that I said, “I’m just going to pause for one minute and let you know that I appreciate that more than you know. I've been in New York City since 2015 and no casting director has ever let me know who was behind the table. I always just had to make up their faces in my mind.”
It's things like that. So I think some might say I'm limiting myself, but I think it's being smart and going to auditions with with more of a mission.
Matthew
Yeah, this is great. And hopefully, people are going to see ABLE, and they're going to be thinking to themselves, I've got the perfect role for this Alie B.
Alie B.
Well, that's really sweet. That is so, so far from the point but it really might be an opportunity for… I remember in one of our interviews, I'll just give this one tidbit away.
We were talking to this this guy who runs a theatre company for inter… basically it's mixed ability Theatre Company. He asks why couldn't Blanche DuBois in A Streetcar Named Desire be blind? Like what a cool choice? Like what a wild idea!
So it's just planting those seeds of certain characters that you already know from classics even that… Maybe by casting someone with a disability a piece of their story might be revealed that has been yet to be thought about. So I think that's what's exciting - and of course creating work = but how neat to maybe apply it to some things and give some some stories a different taste.
Matthew
Where can people find out more about you online or maybe reach out if they want to ask you questions or learn more about you?
Alie B.
I would love that so they can reach out one of two places. My personal website is aliebgorrie.com and then ableaseries.com is our ABLE website. There are contact forms on both of those pages that get right to us.
Also, you can follow me on Instagram, which I'm pretty active on. So that's my handle there is @aliebg and then @ableaseries has an Instagram as well. Those will be your best bets. But of course, you can always slide into DMs or messages on Facebook or things like that as well. But those are the best places to find me.
Matthew
Fantastic. Well, I hope people do reach out. And just to wrap up, if your mom was still listening, is there any story or anything about you she would be saying to you, “Why didn't you tell Matthew that?”
Alie B.
Oh, gosh.
You know I'm trying to think of a story.
Oh, Matthew, I don't know. I feel like we've shared so many good stories tonight. I feel like she would say, “Wow, you really nailed it, Alie B.”
Because you know, she's a southern lady. So, I don't know that she'd be begging to hear me talk more. Because in my family, she's always like, “Okay, we get it.”
But I do want to say, before we go, I am a fan-girling a little bit because your podcast has been so influential to me from hearing from people in Australia to the people you've interviewed here. And I just applaud your commitment to celebrating artists who really want to contribute something deeper, something bigger, something new and fresh to this world.
When I was getting ready to record tonight and thinking about everything, this quote popped into my head. It's by a theologian actually named Frederick Buechner, and he said “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.”
I think so many of your guests exemplify that combination of their deep gladness meeting a deep hunger that's in the world and in the art space. I really, really applaud you bringing so many of those voices to light. I mean, I get I said, so many of them are my heroes and champions. And, and it is a real honor to just chat with you and have these really candid conversations. I appreciate it more than you know.
Matthew
Well, you're now very welcome member of the Studio Time family. It's great to have you as part of the circle. And I think that all of us as artists, get to a point where we want there to be more meaning to the work we do. I think maybe there's something that we all seek as people.
Alie B.
Yes there’s got to be something more.
Matthew
I think our priorities, and what we're seeking to do and achieve through our art can change quite quickly as we get older. But also, as we have experience, we suddenly realise, “Oh, the reason I thought I was doing this isn't the reason I'm want to keep doing it. I realise that there's more I can do through this.”
And so the people that I've been talking to on the podcast, and you are a great example of this, are a great model for how we can do that. So thank you for everything that you're doing. And thank you for your very kind words. I can't wait to hear and see and experience the ABLE series and I hope that we keep in touch and we can hear more from you as things develop.
Alie B.
Absolutely. I appreciate this time and talking with you so much. Thank you so, so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Edited for clarity Matthew Carey