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My guest on this episode is Lili Torre. Lili is the host of The Dreaded Question Podcast where she features artists who have developed parallel careers.
In doing so, she hopes she can introduce more artists to the idea of parallel careers and set them on a quest to find one of their own.
Find and follow Lili online:
website | instagram: @lili_torre @thedreadedquestion
SHOW TRANSCRIPT:
Matthew Carey
Hi Lili and welcome to Studio time.
Lili Torre
Hello Matthew, thank you so much for having me.
Matthew Carey
Now, you are the creator, and the host of The Dreaded Question podcast. I wanted to start off by asking you, how did you come to podcasting? Or if it's better to frame it this way - why?
Lili Torre
That is a fabulous question. I actually never intended to get into podcasting. I wasn't even a very big podcast fan, until not long before I started TDQ, as I affectionately call it. I had the idea to create a web talk show that would feature some of the amazing artists that I know that have parallel careers. Some of those came from conversations that I was having with friends at the time, and I just had this random inspiration to have these conversations with my friends and sort of unpack what led to a successful, long term joyful career as a theatre artist. I started realizing that one of the common threads was having a parallel career or a parallel pursuit, something else in your life besides your artistry. I realized that I wanted to feature some of these amazing people in some way on a platform so that other people could learn from their brilliance. My first idea was a web talk show that would go on YouTube, I suppose. I actually filmed an episode with the first guest I ever interviewed, which was Ally Bonino. I watched the footage back and I was like "Oh, this is why podcasts exist!" Watching two people sit and talk is kind of boring. So I realized then and there that it needed to be a podcast and I ripped the audio from that interview and that ended up being my second episode of TDQ. The podcast was born.
Matthew Carey
How about that! Did you ever post any of that video episode?
Lili Torre
I actually did. My intention had always been with the web talk show idea to have half of the episode be the interview, and have the other half be a live demonstration of what they do. So Ally Bonino and I had also filmed us making cupcakes, because she is a baker and she's amazing. I actually used that footage and I made it into a super fun social media post, which I still watch from time to time because I think it's hilarious and amazing.
Matthew Carey
And who doesn't love virtual cupcakes?
Lili Torre
Exactly.
Matthew Carey
So when I think about you as a podcaster, I wonder who was Lili Torre six months before you started The Dreaded Question?
Lili Torre
Ooh, what a question. Lili Torre, six months before she started The Dreaded Question was very lost and I would say pretty unhappy. I had a really big aha moment when I had been working in a survival job at a restaurant, which was actually an amazing and lovely place with amazing co workers. I left that job for just two weeks to go direct a show at a theater. I was at that theater directing the show and it was the first day of rehearsals, actually, it was the night before the first day of rehearsals. I just had this feeling of ickiness. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And I was like, "What is this horrible feeling? I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be directing the show. Why do I feel this way?" I thought maybe it's just nerves, it'll pass. And I went to the first day of rehearsal. Everything was wonderful. I had the best first day. And I came back to the housing that they provided for me and I sat down and that same feeling came back. I was just feeling really miserable. I decided to sit down and unpack what the source of this feeling was. I realized what I was feeling was dread about coming back to New York and returning to my restaurant job. I was allowing my dread of my survival job to ruin the experience of this directing job that I had fought so hard for and I had wanted for so long. In that moment, I realized that, for me at least, a survival job in the restaurant industry was not sustainable. It wasn't something that was going to be able to keep me going and keep me fueled. If anything, it was really going to detract from my ability to enjoy these jobs in my primary career that I was working so hard to get. It was unacceptable to me. I realized that working in a restaurant had become a hiding place for me to hide from the greater things that I knew I was capable of. From there, I decided to quit my restaurant job and start the exploration towards parallel careers, parallel pursuits and a general obsession with anyone who does anything else other than theater.
Matthew Carey
Great. You've talked about parallel careers a couple of times, but it's clear to me that you didn't perceive the restaurant job as a parallel career. So what is the difference for you between a parallel career and an artist survival job.
Lili Torre
I love this question. And this is a big passion of mine. I actually categorize what one might call a side hustle into three categories. There is the survival job, which many actors know as the restaurant industry or some type of service industry, maybe babysitting for some people. This is a job that you probably hate. Many people describe it as soul sucking. I've heard that a million times. It's the job that you would quit the second you get the call saying "You're on Broadway!" or "You booked a tour!" or whatever the case may be. You'd quit it in a heartbeat. You can't wait. It's seen as a band aid between your theater gigs. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's the parallel career, which is typically some sort of entrepreneurial pursuit, something that you've created for yourself. Although it doesn't have to be it can be a pre existing job that you find perfectly aligns with your skills, your purpose and your values. It's something that you would want to continue doing even if you book the dream gig. For example, I'll use Ally Bonino as an example since I've already spoken about her once. She has two baking companies and she loves them so much and is so passionate about them that she doesn't give them up when she books a gig. In fact, she integrates them oftentimes into her gig by baking for her cast mates. It's such a big part of who she is and what she believes in that she could never let it go. Now there is a third category that I've recently discovered, thanks to my podcast, that I am calling the thrival job. The thrival job is somewhere in between the survival job and the parallel career. So the thrival job utilizes your unique skills and abilities, but it's probably still something a little bit more temporary, something a little bit more finite, something you would possibly/probably still quit if the dream job came along, but it's not necessarily something you would describe as soul sucking. It's something that helps you sharpen your skills in some way. So for me, a great example of this is another guest that I had on TDQ named Ryan Everett Wood. He has a company called The Baking Sitter, which is his parallel career. But as a thrival job, he has been working for a company in New York called Meal Prep Chef to help him sharpen his skills as a chef so that he can become an even better baking sitter in his company. So rather than spending a lot of time and money going to culinary school, he's getting paid to sharpen his skills through his thrival job, which eventually fuels his parallel career.
Matthew Carey
Well, that's fascinating. As you've described it, the survival job and the thrival job do have things in common. But they involve different mindsets. And I guess it also depends on not just the attitude you bring to the job, but the culture of the job or the workplace you find yourself in. If you've found a survival job soul sucking, then there's a certain amount you can do to change your mindset, reframe that and work out what you can bring and give to the job. But there are certain situations that I can imagine that it's really hard to do that because nobody else in your workplace is on the same page.
Lili Torre
Exactly. Yeah. A distinction I would make is that, I would say that a survival job has more of a mindset of "this is what I'm supposed to do" or "this is what actors do." Actor/Waiter is such a stereotype at this point. Typically I think of a survival job being "this is what I'm supposed to do" - a default. Whereas a thrival job is a little bit more possibility minded. Your mindset is a little bit more open to what else you're capable of, and how you might utilize your parallel source of income, whatever it might be, as an opportunity to better yourself and to sharpen some skills that could lead to something bigger for yourself.
Matthew Carey
Yeah, exactly. You mentioned that you had a directing gig a while back, and I know that you've directed, you have acted, you have a podcast and I know you do some voiceover work as well. You have a number of creative endeavors - are any of them parallel careers, or are they all bundled into one career?
Lili Torre
Ooh, this is very interesting. I've been reflecting on this a lot recently. I've said this on my podcast before, but I kind of see myself as the prototype or the experiment for the hypothesis that I'm testing on The Dreaded Question. It's really forced me to look at my sources of income and unpack where they lie in this spectrum of survival job, thrival job and parallel career. Currently, I have a very wide variety of income streams. I have a lot of interests and a lot of passions and the way that that's manifested itself for me in past years has been all over the place. But as far as my creative endeavors, originally I would have said that acting was my primary career, and that anything else that I did was in support of that. More recently, I've actually found that I have shifted my mindset to think of directing more as my primary career. In some ways acting has become a thrival job for me in the sense that acting has become a way for me to sharpen my skills as a director, both in an artistic sense, but also because my connections and the people that I've come to know as an actor have also become connections for my directing career. I found that as hard as acting is and as hard as it can be to get an acting job, in some ways (as a woman who looks young) it can be easier for me to be considered as an actor than it is for me to be considered as a director. So opening the door by saying "Yes, consider me for your summer season as an actor," allows me to then have the conversation of, "I could also direct one of the shows in your season as well." So in that way, acting has kind of become a thrival job for me. I found that voice acting has become a parallel career for me. It's been something that I really love, something that I found really exciting and interesting and empowering and something that I definitely wouldn't give up if I booked the dream directing job tomorrow.
Matthew Carey
I read that you have recently been awarded a Town Stages Creative Fellowship. Congratulations on that Lili.
Lili Torre
Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Alie B. Gorrie, who is also a recent guest of yours is also part of the fellowship with me.
Matthew Carey
I saw that what does that mean for you?
Lili Torre
Town Stages is an incredible organization led by Robin Sokoloff, who's just one of the most incredible women I've ever met in my life. Town is a gorgeous event space. But they have such a beautiful mission to really support artists and to help them cultivate their artistry. They've turned their gorgeous space into what I like to think of as an artist's creative playground, including what used to be an industrial freezer, which they have turned into a podcasting studio. So literally, my dream come true. As part of this fellowship, I have access to this space for a certain number of hours a week. I don't know the number off the top of my head, but it's an incredibly generous number of hours per week that I can use as co working space, as a space to take meetings in, a space to record my podcast and a space to connect with the other amazing Fellows because they are all working on unbelievable things. It's truly insane. I can't believe the company that I'm in.
Matthew Carey
Amazing. So do you go in there with a new project in mind? Or is it a space that you can continue to build the things that you're already working on, and connect with this network of people that are like minded and also striving to build their careers?
Lili Torre
It's a little bit of both. I mean, I'll say right now, unfortunately, we're not able to make amazing use of the space as it is currently closed due to the amazing global pandemic we're currently in. But they have been so incredible about creating online zoom co-working hours to help hold us accountable and allow us to network. As far as our ability to use the actual space, once it does eventually reopen, we can use it for really whatever we want. So for me, I seek to use it as a space to move TDQ forward and up my level of podcasting amazingness. Also as free rehearsal space, which is unbelievably valuable to me in this stage of my career, to really give myself the opportunity to go further on ideas that I've had where I felt limited by a lack of resources. Even just things like taking a meeting. Because in New York, those coffees add up! Every time you meet up with someone for coffee that bill racks up every month. So to be able to have a free space to meet people in is truly amazing.
Matthew Carey
To have a space to invite people to. is great. To have the title or the claim to fame to put on your resume and on your email signature that you have been awarded this fellowship - that means something. It's powerful. There's some people who will take your call now because they see that you're a Town Stages Creative Fellow, even if they don't know what a Town Stages Creative Fellow is.
Lili Torre
Exactly. I feel very fancy. It's pretty exciting.
Matthew Carey
You are fancy and one of the things that I also really love about listening to you here and on the podcast is just how enthusiastic you are about everything. Even about the pandemic. You called it, the amazing pandemic. And I love it. I mean, it is it's the best pandemic in a generation, right?
Lili Torre
The best and only but yeah, if we can't find the good, then what are we even doing? It's obviously a horrible, terrible, NOT amazing thing that's happening to our world right now. I certainly don't mean to make light of anyone who is having a hard time right now, but I choose to focus on the opportunity that I see for myself and others in this time and frankly, on the other side of this.
Matthew Carey
Absolutely. And I love the good finding that you do. Lili, how do you think about the guests that you'd like to have on The Dreaded Question?
Lili Torre
Ooh, I was just saying to someone earlier today, "I don't know what I did in a past life to attract so many amazing people into my life, whatever it was, must have been incredible." I'm so grateful to my past life self for doing it, because somehow the most amazing people in the world tend to find me. It's not hard for me to find artists who have incredible gifts that they're utilizing outside of their artistry. I remember early on someone saying to me, "Aren't you worried you'll eventually run out of guests? Artists with a parallel career, how common is that?" What's so funny about that is (a) No, I'm not finding any trouble finding artists with parallel careers. But (b) if the podcast is successful, hopefully I will be generating new guests by inspiring some of my listeners to pursue a parallel career or pursuit or a thrival job from listening to the podcast.
Matthew Carey
I was just thinking that. You're generating future guests with the podcast.
Lili Torre
Exactly, exactly right. So I shouldn't ever run out of guests. But I'm also finding that I get listeners writing in and saying, "Hey, I think this person would be an amazing guest on your podcast," or some of my previous guests saying, "Hey, a friend of mine would be really great." And recently with everything going on, I've had some really amazing people who have been guests on the podcast before reaching out to me and saying, "Hey, you know, in this time, I feel like I have something new to say. And I'd really like to communicate it to your listeners," which I just think is so incredibly generous and has been such a wonderful contribution in this time.
Matthew Carey
That's interesting to me. I have had the sense with a lot of the conversations that I've had with my guests that I would love to re-engage with that guests, and talk with them further. How have you found the experience of having somebody on the show for a subsequent visit?
Lili Torre
I feel like with every guest, the experience is so different. I find the same is true having people back on. Part of that is because sometimes I approach guests and say, "Hey, I want to have you back on." So the conversation is very natural in the sense that we're discovering it together. We're figuring out what the story is here. But when guests approach me about returning on to the show, oftentimes they'll say, "Hey, I want to come back on because I have this new idea I really want to unpack that I think your listeners will really enjoy." That's always really interesting and fun for me, because I kind of give the reins over a little bit and say "Okay, you're the one who wanted to come back on. You're the one who had the idea. Let's go, what do you want to talk about?" I actually find that in some ways, I guess challenging, but in a really fun and exciting way. It really gets me present and in the moment. I really have to listen and make sure that I am fully absorbing what's going on. I'm sure you've experienced this, but as soon as you start to assume that you know what your guest is going to say, you've kind of failed. You have to stay present, you have to stay open to where they want to take the conversation. So when they're initiating that desire to come back on - all the more so.
Matthew Carey
Absolutely. You have to walk the fine line between really listening and trying to see what the next step of the conversation is going to be as well. That is something that I've been practicing. Sometimes I find that I get in my head and I think about what's coming next, then I... It's like when you're driving. I don't know how much you drive because you live in New York City Lili, but it's like when you're driving and you've been driving for a while, and then you suddenly realize, "Hang on. I haven't really thought about driving for a while. How did I get to this point?" Sometimes it's like that hosting a show as well. I do agree that listening is really important and I like to think that where the conversation flows naturally, generally gets it to a more interesting place.
Lili Torre
Oh, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I think getting too stuck in what you've decided an episode is going to be really stifles it. It's always better to let the individual guest's own personality, magic, story really shine and you have to ride along with it. Yeah.
Matthew Carey
You mentioned the guests having something they want to unpack and share with your listeners and I wonder how do you think about your audience, Lili? When you are thinking about the people that are listening to the show - who do you see? Who are you considering?
Lili Torre
First and foremost, and especially when I first created TDQ, I was thinking of my college self. The version of myself who had been told over and over again,"Iif you can do anything else, do that instead." Who took that as almost a mantra or a test to see if I truly was committed to this career in theater. It really encouraged me to dig my heels in and say, "No, I won't do anything else because I know that even my interest in something else is just testing me to see if I'm really committed to my craft." I so wish that I could go back in time and say to her, "No, don't do that. Listen to the other things that people are telling you!" I had amazing professors in college who told me all the time that I was capable of other things and encouraged me to develop my interest in directing, and voiceovers, and, you know, all of the other interests that I had. And yet, I couldn't hear them because when they would say those things, because I had the limiting belief that if I could do anything else, I should do that instead, when they would say, "Hey, you know, you'd also be a really great director," I would hear, "You shouldn't be an actor." What was meant as such a gift and what could have helped me so much, I took as wounding. It makes me sad to think back on that and to think how narrow-minded I was and how limited my beliefs about my own self were just because of this adage that I had heard. Originally, yeah, I was really creating TDQ for my past self. From there, I think of some of the students who are at my alma mater now who I know listen. Who have reached out to me. I have never even met most of them, and they reach out and tell me that they're listening. I think of my communities here in New York, namely, the Jen Waldman studio, I think of all of my fellow artists in that studio, and I'm always seeking to serve them. But I always go back to my college-self because I know her so well. I know what she needed to hear and I'm always hoping to retroactively heal some of that in myself and in others.
Matthew Carey
That's beautiful. I think about that idea as well. What answers would I like to put in the air for my former self, to maybe grab on to sooner? Other times, I wonder whether I was ready to discover those answers at the time, or like you said whether the answers were there already, but I wasn't ready to see them? Or I wasn't ready to ask that difficult question. But I think it's important that the ideas, the answers are out there so that at the moment that somebody is ready to receive them, there's some way to get them. Whether college Lili was ready to think about a parallel career in the same way that you are now, I think the fact that TDQ now exists and it's out in the world, and it's downloadable for the new college-Lili to discover when she's ready, then I think that's a really powerful thing.
Lili Torre
Yes. I couldn't agree with that more. You're absolutely right. You can't know if you would have been ready but just putting it out there is really all you can do. Another thing that I really believe is you have to see it to be it. I think part of the reason I couldn't imagine myself doing more than one thing is I didn't feel like I was seeing it. That doesn't mean it didn't exist, because I know that there were brilliant artists with parallel careers when I was in college, but I wasn't seeing them. I didn't know who they were. To have a podcast where every week I'm meeting a new one, would have really been the evidence that I needed that that existed and could happen and could even be successful.
Matthew Carey
That idea of 'you have to see it to be it' is really powerful. I know that's something that you're exploring and demonstrating in The Dreaded Question by showing people that are living lives with parallel careers. It's something that has also been a theme of Studio Time in the idea of diversity and showing people different ways of approaching their career. As we talk about podcasting in this conversation, I'm acutely aware that a lot of what we're talking about really applies to any creative endeavor. With that in mind, how do you think about getting your podcast to a wider audience?
Lili Torre
This is interesting to me because to be totally honest with you, it's not something I think about almost at all. I don't really look at the downloads that much. I'll see it every now and then, especially when it hits some sort of milestone. I remember when it hit 10,000 downloads, I was like, "Oh my god," but really, at the end of the day, I just have this belief that whoever needs to hear it will hear it when they're ready. I do implore my audience at the end of most episodes to share it with someone they think needs to hear it. To me, that is the way that this message will get out. Because like you said, I have no way of knowing if and when people are ready to hear this, but people's friends might know that their friend is ready and willing to hear it. That's how I listen to new podcasts. Someone will send it to me and say, "Hey, this made me think of you or I think you'd really enjoy this." I would much rather focus my energy on creating interesting and meaningful content, than slaving away at social media. It is no secret to anyone who knows me that I suck at social media and I really am not someone who loves it. I would rather focus my energy on creating something meaningful than obsessing over how many downloads can I get. I have faith that the message will get out and the people who need to hear it will hear it.
Matthew Carey
I'm taking all that in. I've been thinking about it as well and part of me hides from really trying to put out the word about the podcast. Part of me wants to feel like there's enough episodes in the can that it feels substantial enough to present it to the world. But I know there's part of me that is hiding in doing that. Sometimes it's easier to look at things from a step back when you're listening to somebody else. I can already see that there is potential for Lili Torre to do a college tour really, and take the word out to classes of actors or people looking at getting into the arts about this right now. Tagging back to something you said earlier on, I think that there are some teachers that say, "Hey, you know, you could also think about this, and think about this." But I have a suspicion that a number of teachers in tertiary institutions aren't necessarily going to open your eyes to that, because one of the reasons why they're teaching there is because they didn't want to open their own eyes to it. That doesn't stop them from perhaps being amazing teachers, but when they get into a system, especially if they're there permanently rather than being a guest teacher, then life becomes about *staying* a teacher.
Lili Torre
Yes. Ooh. That is a really interesting noodle. You know, I've always attributed it because, yes, I had an amazing university experience. I went to Millikin University in Illinois. I absolutely loved it. But even within my university program, there were definitely the more forward thinking open minded professors and there were definitely some of the more closed minded. I don't know if I want to say old fashioned, but I do think of that "if you can do anything else do that instead" mindset as pretty old fashioned. There were definitely professors who had more of that lens and that mindset, and I'm sure it's because it was browbeaten into them their whole upbringing. I definitely seek to bring TDQ into universities as a workshop to help not only the students start to broaden their scope and consider what their unique skills have to contribute in other ways other than their artistry. But yeah also, as you said, to help broaden the perspectives of the professors as well. Some of them are stuck in these beliefs that I'm not sure they've ever even questioned. I remember Jen Waldman once said "It is irresponsible to tell an actor that they will ever make money from their art." And as intense as a statement like that may sound, it's true. I think that that is a harsh reality that universities are not taking responsibility for. A great way to support their students would be by bringing in people who have done it, people who are currently doing it, who know what it's like to pursue a career in this field, and who can help their students see the bigger picture of what their skills as artists can bring to the world. This time is unfortunately proof of that fact that it is important to understand the full scope of what you are capable of, and what that might look like as far as what your contribution is to this world. It's definitely something that I've been working on and it's definitely something that I hope to bring to universities in the not so distant future, If and when they're back in session.
Matthew Carey
That's really generous of you. You talked about your social media presence, I was going back to The Dreaded Question Instagram page just before we started talking, because I feel like you're doing that a lot better than what I am. Which isn't saying much, that's not much of a compliment, I'm afraid.
Lili Torre
It was gonna say, "Oh my gosh, no one's ever complimented it."
Matthew Carey
I have thought about how much time and energy to invest in social media and where that can pay off. But the one thing that I really did notice as I scrolled back through the Instagram page with the posts that you've got there - is that it's a simple visual representation of all the work and all that you've created with the podcast. I think that's a really great gallery to have.
Lili Torre
Thank you. I really appreciate that. Sometimes I try to guilt myself and say that I should be putting more energy and time into it. But just like with anything in life, I really try to be intentional with it and use the good old Seth Godin advantages of Who's it for? and What's it for? Do I really care about posting something random every single day? No. What I really want from my social media posts is to let my listeners know who the next guest is, and a little bit of information about them and then I also utilize it as a platform to shout out the successes of some of my guests as well, which is a way that I really, really love to use it. That's pretty much exclusively the way that I use stories - just to shout out the amazing things that my guests are doing after their time on TDQ. To try to force myself to post more than that is, I don't really think worth my time. So I'm thrilled that you got something out of it.
Matthew Carey
It's almost like having the fact that you can put you've been awarded a fellowship on a piece of paper. When somebody doesn't know The Dreaded Question podcast, and you can point them towards that they can scroll through it and they realize they have to scroll back a reasonable way to get to the beginning of your journey there. There's something about having that body of work, that you can just hand to somebody or link to somebody and say "Here, this is what I've done." I think that means something.
Lili Torre
Absolutely. What you're talking about is utilizing social media to tell the story that you want to tell and utilizing it with intention. So yes, I absolutely subscribe to that.
Matthew Carey
I'm going to jump back. This was a thought that I had, and then it fell out of my head but I think it's worth bringing back. The idea of going to a class and telling people about parallel careers. The other thing that you touched on, definitely in the podcast, and I think it's important to think about - is that there doesn't have to be shame if you are not making your entire income from your art. We go into these courses thinking, "Well, this is what's going to be my career. This is what's going to be my profession." There are a lot of people beating themselves up because they can't make a full time living from doing this thing that's their passion. If we can let go of that, then we can live much more happily.
Lili Torre
Oh, absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I would probably take it a step further and say not only eliminating the shame around not being able to make your full living out of being an artist, but instead getting real and getting realistic. If you look at the numbers, there is a very, very small percentage of the artist/actor population that is making a real livable living from being a full time actor, especially a theater actor. There were recently some numbers released by Actors Equity here in the States. There was a little pie chart of how much Equity actors made in (I'm not sure if it was) 2018 or 2019. The numbers were kind of depressing. There was a very small percentage of the pie that was making enough to live on, especially in New York. And I think that's the type of reality check that universities need to be giving to their students. Not to be negative, Nancy, you can't do it, but to help them broaden their scope of what they might do and truly how they might utilize the skills that they are learning in their theater classes at that university. There's more ways than one to use these skills and they're valuable and they are sought after. I think, yes, eliminating the shame is paramount. And then step two is getting real. And I think getting real may actually be the antidote to some of that shame.
Matthew Carey
Amen to getting real. Lili, what's the most unexpected thing you've learned from the process of making your podcast?
Lili Torre
Oh, just so many things. I truly - this is such a silly answer - but truly the most unexpected thing that came out of starting my podcast was how many people said some version of "I love your voice. I love listening to your voice." I remember specifically one day being at Jen Waldman Studio here in New York. I was having a conversation with someone and someone else just popped their head out and was like, "Are you Lili Torre? I recognize your voice!" It was just so funny to me that that was one of the big takeaways for people and, ironically has been very fueling for me in getting a little bit more committed to my parallel career of voiceover work. So that's been super validating. Something else that continues to surprise me is how much people need to hear these episodes. I say this a lot and it probably sounds weird every time I say it, but I am inspired by my own podcast. Editing back the episodes and hearing people's stories and hearing the amazing things that these artists are up to, really is meaningful to me and inspires me and encourages me to keep going. Every single time someone reaches out and says that it's meaningful to them, or even they started their own parallel career because of listening to it. I mean, it shocks me every time as if it's the first time. I don't think that I could have anticipated (a) how impactful it would be for other people, but (b) how impactful that would be for me to know that I'm not alone in this feeling and this curiosity.
Matthew Carey
Do you have an example in mind of somebody who's created a parallel career after listening to the podcast?
Lili Torre
Oh, my gosh, yes, I do. Speaking of my alma mater, a wonderful and amazing young woman who recently graduated from Milliken. We did not overlap at school, but I did actually have the chance to meet her when I went back to Milliken to visit not too long ago. She sent me a message on Instagram and told me that she started a parallel career which actually now I might categorize as a thrival job now that I'm thinking about it, but it's so brilliant. She's an actor, but she also is interested in choreographing and has started to do some work choreographing. So she started her own business, choreographing dance combinations for people to record for their demo reel. So especially for someone who doesn't consider themselves a dancer, who wants to put a little bit of movement on tape, she'll chat with them and figure out what they need and choreograph a few eight counts for them, send them the video of her breaking it down, showing them how to do it and then they can use it for their demo reel and really get something personalized to them that highlights what they do best. So by doing this, not only has she come up with a parallel source of income for herself, but she's also sharpening and practicing her skills as a choreographer which I just think is genius.
Matthew Carey
Absolutely. The idea of bespoke choreography appeals to me greatly. She's getting more of her work out into the world. She's practising, and she's getting paid for it.
Lili Torre
Exactly, right? Genius.
Matthew Carey
Here's a question for you. The Dreaded Question podcast is the name of your show. The dreaded question that you ask the guests on your show, is, "So, what are you up to?" The idea is that that's an anxiety inducing question for a lot of creatives. Not so much in this particular conversation, but I have noticed listening to your show that you use the word *dread* now and then. And so I'm curious to ask, What does dread mean to you? What's it a synonym or a placeholder word for?
Lili Torre
Dread. I would say, anxiety, fear - especially in the context of The Dreaded Question. I don't know if I would categorize it as imposter syndrome or an acute feeling that you are not enough and whatever you are doing is not enough and not interesting. I think it's a difficult feeling to pinpoint and I think it looks like a lot of different things in a lot of different situations. But the thing that I find interesting about dread is that it's typically a feeling before something happens. So before you even know the outcome, before you even know if the thing you're afraid of is going to happen - you've already experienced the fear and anxiety as if it's definitely going to happen.
Matthew Carey
Dread is anticipatory.
Lili Torre
Exactly. And so to me, it is such a waste of an emotion because you're putting yourself through this horrible feeling before you even know if it's necessary. I find it really insidious in that way and unfortunately powerful in that way. So one of my many hopes from The Dreaded Question is - I don't think that we necessarily have the power to eliminate that question from the vocabulary of all of us - but I do think we have the power to control our response and to alleviate that dread and to choose to not anticipate that feeling before it arrives. Then if it does arrive, we'll know how to deal with it.
Matthew Carey
Yeah, I think that we've probably talked around this, but what would you describe as being the antidote to dread?
Lili Torre
I would say the antidote to dread is probably presence and a mindset of possibility. Instead of anticipating what might go wrong, anticipating what might go right and being present enough with yourself and with whoever you're speaking to, to allow yourself to react in the moment. I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but to assume the best intention of the person you're speaking with. To summarize that - it's a combination of presence, possibility and empathy.
Matthew Carey
Perfect. I like that. If dread is about future-thinking and future-anxiety, then another antidote of that is to put yourself back on the hook and bring yourself back into the moment and say, "Rather than worry about what might happen later, where am I now and what can I do at this moment that will do more to get me towards the place I want to go than just waiting for the wrong thing to happen?"
Lili Torre
Yes, absolutely.
Matthew Carey
Lili in the special skills section of your resume, you say, "I am an impeccable recruiter. When I find an establishment that is in alignment with my values, I've been known to send dozens of delightful, qualified candidates their way." Can you give me an example of this?
Lili Torre
Oh, absolutely. I have gainfully employed (especially in my restaurant industry days) I feel like I duped the system. I truly believe that this unique ability of mine is the reason I was able to survive as long as I did in the restaurant industry. There was an amazing restaurant and bar in New York City called Maysville that at one time was probably at least 50% employed by friends of mine. It was just like the best life hack because I was getting paid to go to work and just hang with my friends all day, and it was kind of the best. There were days where we were kind of slow, where I would just catch up with these beautiful and amazing people that I love and adore, and leave work and be like, "Wow, I can't believe I got paid for that." It's definitely something that I think is a unique contribution of mine because I do believe that one of my skills is an ability to see the alignment between people and to understand when two things would fit together beautifully.
Matthew Carey
I guess this is what you're doing with the podcast, too. Bringing in people that you want to work with to have the conversations with you. Then you're sending the conversations out in the form of episodes, which then invite other people to engage with the guests that you've been lifting up.
Lili Torre
Yes, I love that connection. Absolutely.
Matthew Carey
As we get towards the end of this conversation, I wanted to ask how you think about the different ways that people can communicate. My friend, Adam, introduced me to this concept of micro casting. Adam and I rarely text each other. We live in different countries. But what we'll do is we'll send asynchronous voice messages to each other. Every day or so one of us will send a voice message to the other, and then we'll listen to it and we'll respond that way. It's like the longest phone call ever, with the most awkward silences. I decided to use that method to reach out to you and I first reached out to you last year, because I'm so used to hearing your voice, that voice-to-voice seemed a way to communicate with you. It makes me think about the way we communicate differently through different forms of media. The way we communicate via text is different to the way we communicate when we're using our voices. And it's different to the way we communicate and or take in information when we're watching video. How do you think differently about text, audio and video?
Lili Torre
Hmm, this is interesting. I have to say, first of all that you reaching out to me via a voice memo is truly one of my favorite things of all time. I tell people about it all the time because it is just so brilliant, and really encouraged me to be more creative and intentional with my reach outs and take the opportunity to communicate in different ways. So I love that you did that. As far as the ways that we communicate, being a voiceover artist and having a podcast and of course, as a singer, I'm obsessed with the ability of the human voice to tell such a story and communicate so much on its own. I think in this day and age where we are so overstimulated so much of the time, it is easy to undervalue the ability of our voices to communicate the full story without the need for a visual. Text is similar in that it's visual, and there's no auditory component. With both the voice and text, so often we can fill in those blanks for ourselves, which I think really fuels our imagination. If I talk about a day at the beach and say that I could see the beautiful blue waves crashing onto the sand and I could smell the salt in the air and I could hear the seagulls overhead...you may start to visualize that and maybe even smell what I'm talking about and experience what I'm talking about. Similarly, when you read an amazing book that describes things in amazing detail, you feel like you can hear it, you can taste it, you can experience it yourself. What's so amazing about film is it has the ability to bring those senses together at once, and really deliver something a little bit more concrete in that sense. Yet, it's still open to our interpretation. It's still not a fully realized experience until we've interpreted it ourselves. Film can make the choice to incorporate the audio or not. And same with the visual. I could go on and on, but I think that the way that we ignite our different senses through different mediums is fascinating to me, especially as someone who considers herself primarily an auditory learner. It fascinates me how sometimes that helps me in mediums that aren't as visual and sometimes it hurts me. So I find it fascinating.
Matthew Carey
Yeah. We could come back and unpack that for ages. I think in terms of one-to-one communication or trying to express oneself, there is clearly a lot that can be done through the written word. There's been very significant books that have shaped the stories of our life and have shaped our culture. But when I think about in 2020, where we are now, and I think about the way we communicate via words, it's often short phrases that don't always communicate what we really want to say. In fact, we don't use words half the time now. The way we interact with those messages can be so cursory sometimes that we don't necessarily read them fully or take time to appreciate what they're trying to say. When I think about film (video), and I think about sending a story or snap, sometimes the person who's trying to communicate can get so caught up in how they look while they communicate it, that we lose something. We lose some of the connection. And the thing I like about audio, even though, as I'm demonstrating right now, sometimes we can take a little while to get to the point - you hear the words, and you hear the way they're being expressed. And you can see the person that's speaking to you in a way. The other thing about podcasts - the way we listen to podcasts is often with earbuds or headphones. We can be a long way away from each other, but feel like we're having a really intimate chat, as though we're just sitting side by side or facing each other having a conversation. You and I are thousands of kilometres, thousands of miles away, and I could imagine you're sitting across from me and we were just having this conversation over an expensive cup of coffee.
Lili Torre
Exactly.
Matthew Carey
Lili for the people that are meeting you today for the first time, where's the best place for them to find and follow you online?
Lili Torre
If you're interested in finding The Dreaded Question podcast, it's basically everywhere that there are podcasts. But if you want to follow what is clearly what is a very exciting Instagram page, you can look us up at @thedreadedquestion. And you can follow me @lili_torre.
Matthew Carey
Fantastic. Lili, I've been looking forward to speaking to you for ages and I'm really grateful for you putting aside the time to have this conversation. So thank you.
Lili Torre
Thank you. This was so amazing and such a treat for me to not be in the driver's seat today. Thank you for your generous and thoughtful questions.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT:
Matthew Carey
Hi Lili and welcome to Studio time.
Lili Torre
Hello Matthew, thank you so much for having me.
Matthew Carey
Now, you are the creator, and the host of The Dreaded Question podcast. I wanted to start off by asking you, how did you come to podcasting? Or if it's better to frame it this way - why?
Lili Torre
That is a fabulous question. I actually never intended to get into podcasting. I wasn't even a very big podcast fan, until not long before I started TDQ, as I affectionately call it. I had the idea to create a web talk show that would feature some of the amazing artists that I know that have parallel careers. Some of those came from conversations that I was having with friends at the time, and I just had this random inspiration to have these conversations with my friends and sort of unpack what led to a successful, long term joyful career as a theatre artist. I started realizing that one of the common threads was having a parallel career or a parallel pursuit, something else in your life besides your artistry. I realized that I wanted to feature some of these amazing people in some way on a platform so that other people could learn from their brilliance. My first idea was a web talk show that would go on YouTube, I suppose. I actually filmed an episode with the first guest I ever interviewed, which was Ally Bonino. I watched the footage back and I was like "Oh, this is why podcasts exist!" Watching two people sit and talk is kind of boring. So I realized then and there that it needed to be a podcast and I ripped the audio from that interview and that ended up being my second episode of TDQ. The podcast was born.
Matthew Carey
How about that! Did you ever post any of that video episode?
Lili Torre
I actually did. My intention had always been with the web talk show idea to have half of the episode be the interview, and have the other half be a live demonstration of what they do. So Ally Bonino and I had also filmed us making cupcakes, because she is a baker and she's amazing. I actually used that footage and I made it into a super fun social media post, which I still watch from time to time because I think it's hilarious and amazing.
Matthew Carey
And who doesn't love virtual cupcakes?
Lili Torre
Exactly.
Matthew Carey
So when I think about you as a podcaster, I wonder who was Lili Torre six months before you started The Dreaded Question?
Lili Torre
Ooh, what a question. Lili Torre, six months before she started The Dreaded Question was very lost and I would say pretty unhappy. I had a really big aha moment when I had been working in a survival job at a restaurant, which was actually an amazing and lovely place with amazing co workers. I left that job for just two weeks to go direct a show at a theater. I was at that theater directing the show and it was the first day of rehearsals, actually, it was the night before the first day of rehearsals. I just had this feeling of ickiness. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And I was like, "What is this horrible feeling? I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be directing the show. Why do I feel this way?" I thought maybe it's just nerves, it'll pass. And I went to the first day of rehearsal. Everything was wonderful. I had the best first day. And I came back to the housing that they provided for me and I sat down and that same feeling came back. I was just feeling really miserable. I decided to sit down and unpack what the source of this feeling was. I realized what I was feeling was dread about coming back to New York and returning to my restaurant job. I was allowing my dread of my survival job to ruin the experience of this directing job that I had fought so hard for and I had wanted for so long. In that moment, I realized that, for me at least, a survival job in the restaurant industry was not sustainable. It wasn't something that was going to be able to keep me going and keep me fueled. If anything, it was really going to detract from my ability to enjoy these jobs in my primary career that I was working so hard to get. It was unacceptable to me. I realized that working in a restaurant had become a hiding place for me to hide from the greater things that I knew I was capable of. From there, I decided to quit my restaurant job and start the exploration towards parallel careers, parallel pursuits and a general obsession with anyone who does anything else other than theater.
Matthew Carey
Great. You've talked about parallel careers a couple of times, but it's clear to me that you didn't perceive the restaurant job as a parallel career. So what is the difference for you between a parallel career and an artist survival job.
Lili Torre
I love this question. And this is a big passion of mine. I actually categorize what one might call a side hustle into three categories. There is the survival job, which many actors know as the restaurant industry or some type of service industry, maybe babysitting for some people. This is a job that you probably hate. Many people describe it as soul sucking. I've heard that a million times. It's the job that you would quit the second you get the call saying "You're on Broadway!" or "You booked a tour!" or whatever the case may be. You'd quit it in a heartbeat. You can't wait. It's seen as a band aid between your theater gigs. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's the parallel career, which is typically some sort of entrepreneurial pursuit, something that you've created for yourself. Although it doesn't have to be it can be a pre existing job that you find perfectly aligns with your skills, your purpose and your values. It's something that you would want to continue doing even if you book the dream gig. For example, I'll use Ally Bonino as an example since I've already spoken about her once. She has two baking companies and she loves them so much and is so passionate about them that she doesn't give them up when she books a gig. In fact, she integrates them oftentimes into her gig by baking for her cast mates. It's such a big part of who she is and what she believes in that she could never let it go. Now there is a third category that I've recently discovered, thanks to my podcast, that I am calling the thrival job. The thrival job is somewhere in between the survival job and the parallel career. So the thrival job utilizes your unique skills and abilities, but it's probably still something a little bit more temporary, something a little bit more finite, something you would possibly/probably still quit if the dream job came along, but it's not necessarily something you would describe as soul sucking. It's something that helps you sharpen your skills in some way. So for me, a great example of this is another guest that I had on TDQ named Ryan Everett Wood. He has a company called The Baking Sitter, which is his parallel career. But as a thrival job, he has been working for a company in New York called Meal Prep Chef to help him sharpen his skills as a chef so that he can become an even better baking sitter in his company. So rather than spending a lot of time and money going to culinary school, he's getting paid to sharpen his skills through his thrival job, which eventually fuels his parallel career.
Matthew Carey
Well, that's fascinating. As you've described it, the survival job and the thrival job do have things in common. But they involve different mindsets. And I guess it also depends on not just the attitude you bring to the job, but the culture of the job or the workplace you find yourself in. If you've found a survival job soul sucking, then there's a certain amount you can do to change your mindset, reframe that and work out what you can bring and give to the job. But there are certain situations that I can imagine that it's really hard to do that because nobody else in your workplace is on the same page.
Lili Torre
Exactly. Yeah. A distinction I would make is that, I would say that a survival job has more of a mindset of "this is what I'm supposed to do" or "this is what actors do." Actor/Waiter is such a stereotype at this point. Typically I think of a survival job being "this is what I'm supposed to do" - a default. Whereas a thrival job is a little bit more possibility minded. Your mindset is a little bit more open to what else you're capable of, and how you might utilize your parallel source of income, whatever it might be, as an opportunity to better yourself and to sharpen some skills that could lead to something bigger for yourself.
Matthew Carey
Yeah, exactly. You mentioned that you had a directing gig a while back, and I know that you've directed, you have acted, you have a podcast and I know you do some voiceover work as well. You have a number of creative endeavors - are any of them parallel careers, or are they all bundled into one career?
Lili Torre
Ooh, this is very interesting. I've been reflecting on this a lot recently. I've said this on my podcast before, but I kind of see myself as the prototype or the experiment for the hypothesis that I'm testing on The Dreaded Question. It's really forced me to look at my sources of income and unpack where they lie in this spectrum of survival job, thrival job and parallel career. Currently, I have a very wide variety of income streams. I have a lot of interests and a lot of passions and the way that that's manifested itself for me in past years has been all over the place. But as far as my creative endeavors, originally I would have said that acting was my primary career, and that anything else that I did was in support of that. More recently, I've actually found that I have shifted my mindset to think of directing more as my primary career. In some ways acting has become a thrival job for me in the sense that acting has become a way for me to sharpen my skills as a director, both in an artistic sense, but also because my connections and the people that I've come to know as an actor have also become connections for my directing career. I found that as hard as acting is and as hard as it can be to get an acting job, in some ways (as a woman who looks young) it can be easier for me to be considered as an actor than it is for me to be considered as a director. So opening the door by saying "Yes, consider me for your summer season as an actor," allows me to then have the conversation of, "I could also direct one of the shows in your season as well." So in that way, acting has kind of become a thrival job for me. I found that voice acting has become a parallel career for me. It's been something that I really love, something that I found really exciting and interesting and empowering and something that I definitely wouldn't give up if I booked the dream directing job tomorrow.
Matthew Carey
I read that you have recently been awarded a Town Stages Creative Fellowship. Congratulations on that Lili.
Lili Torre
Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Alie B. Gorrie, who is also a recent guest of yours is also part of the fellowship with me.
Matthew Carey
I saw that what does that mean for you?
Lili Torre
Town Stages is an incredible organization led by Robin Sokoloff, who's just one of the most incredible women I've ever met in my life. Town is a gorgeous event space. But they have such a beautiful mission to really support artists and to help them cultivate their artistry. They've turned their gorgeous space into what I like to think of as an artist's creative playground, including what used to be an industrial freezer, which they have turned into a podcasting studio. So literally, my dream come true. As part of this fellowship, I have access to this space for a certain number of hours a week. I don't know the number off the top of my head, but it's an incredibly generous number of hours per week that I can use as co working space, as a space to take meetings in, a space to record my podcast and a space to connect with the other amazing Fellows because they are all working on unbelievable things. It's truly insane. I can't believe the company that I'm in.
Matthew Carey
Amazing. So do you go in there with a new project in mind? Or is it a space that you can continue to build the things that you're already working on, and connect with this network of people that are like minded and also striving to build their careers?
Lili Torre
It's a little bit of both. I mean, I'll say right now, unfortunately, we're not able to make amazing use of the space as it is currently closed due to the amazing global pandemic we're currently in. But they have been so incredible about creating online zoom co-working hours to help hold us accountable and allow us to network. As far as our ability to use the actual space, once it does eventually reopen, we can use it for really whatever we want. So for me, I seek to use it as a space to move TDQ forward and up my level of podcasting amazingness. Also as free rehearsal space, which is unbelievably valuable to me in this stage of my career, to really give myself the opportunity to go further on ideas that I've had where I felt limited by a lack of resources. Even just things like taking a meeting. Because in New York, those coffees add up! Every time you meet up with someone for coffee that bill racks up every month. So to be able to have a free space to meet people in is truly amazing.
Matthew Carey
To have a space to invite people to. is great. To have the title or the claim to fame to put on your resume and on your email signature that you have been awarded this fellowship - that means something. It's powerful. There's some people who will take your call now because they see that you're a Town Stages Creative Fellow, even if they don't know what a Town Stages Creative Fellow is.
Lili Torre
Exactly. I feel very fancy. It's pretty exciting.
Matthew Carey
You are fancy and one of the things that I also really love about listening to you here and on the podcast is just how enthusiastic you are about everything. Even about the pandemic. You called it, the amazing pandemic. And I love it. I mean, it is it's the best pandemic in a generation, right?
Lili Torre
The best and only but yeah, if we can't find the good, then what are we even doing? It's obviously a horrible, terrible, NOT amazing thing that's happening to our world right now. I certainly don't mean to make light of anyone who is having a hard time right now, but I choose to focus on the opportunity that I see for myself and others in this time and frankly, on the other side of this.
Matthew Carey
Absolutely. And I love the good finding that you do. Lili, how do you think about the guests that you'd like to have on The Dreaded Question?
Lili Torre
Ooh, I was just saying to someone earlier today, "I don't know what I did in a past life to attract so many amazing people into my life, whatever it was, must have been incredible." I'm so grateful to my past life self for doing it, because somehow the most amazing people in the world tend to find me. It's not hard for me to find artists who have incredible gifts that they're utilizing outside of their artistry. I remember early on someone saying to me, "Aren't you worried you'll eventually run out of guests? Artists with a parallel career, how common is that?" What's so funny about that is (a) No, I'm not finding any trouble finding artists with parallel careers. But (b) if the podcast is successful, hopefully I will be generating new guests by inspiring some of my listeners to pursue a parallel career or pursuit or a thrival job from listening to the podcast.
Matthew Carey
I was just thinking that. You're generating future guests with the podcast.
Lili Torre
Exactly, exactly right. So I shouldn't ever run out of guests. But I'm also finding that I get listeners writing in and saying, "Hey, I think this person would be an amazing guest on your podcast," or some of my previous guests saying, "Hey, a friend of mine would be really great." And recently with everything going on, I've had some really amazing people who have been guests on the podcast before reaching out to me and saying, "Hey, you know, in this time, I feel like I have something new to say. And I'd really like to communicate it to your listeners," which I just think is so incredibly generous and has been such a wonderful contribution in this time.
Matthew Carey
That's interesting to me. I have had the sense with a lot of the conversations that I've had with my guests that I would love to re-engage with that guests, and talk with them further. How have you found the experience of having somebody on the show for a subsequent visit?
Lili Torre
I feel like with every guest, the experience is so different. I find the same is true having people back on. Part of that is because sometimes I approach guests and say, "Hey, I want to have you back on." So the conversation is very natural in the sense that we're discovering it together. We're figuring out what the story is here. But when guests approach me about returning on to the show, oftentimes they'll say, "Hey, I want to come back on because I have this new idea I really want to unpack that I think your listeners will really enjoy." That's always really interesting and fun for me, because I kind of give the reins over a little bit and say "Okay, you're the one who wanted to come back on. You're the one who had the idea. Let's go, what do you want to talk about?" I actually find that in some ways, I guess challenging, but in a really fun and exciting way. It really gets me present and in the moment. I really have to listen and make sure that I am fully absorbing what's going on. I'm sure you've experienced this, but as soon as you start to assume that you know what your guest is going to say, you've kind of failed. You have to stay present, you have to stay open to where they want to take the conversation. So when they're initiating that desire to come back on - all the more so.
Matthew Carey
Absolutely. You have to walk the fine line between really listening and trying to see what the next step of the conversation is going to be as well. That is something that I've been practicing. Sometimes I find that I get in my head and I think about what's coming next, then I... It's like when you're driving. I don't know how much you drive because you live in New York City Lili, but it's like when you're driving and you've been driving for a while, and then you suddenly realize, "Hang on. I haven't really thought about driving for a while. How did I get to this point?" Sometimes it's like that hosting a show as well. I do agree that listening is really important and I like to think that where the conversation flows naturally, generally gets it to a more interesting place.
Lili Torre
Oh, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I think getting too stuck in what you've decided an episode is going to be really stifles it. It's always better to let the individual guest's own personality, magic, story really shine and you have to ride along with it. Yeah.
Matthew Carey
You mentioned the guests having something they want to unpack and share with your listeners and I wonder how do you think about your audience, Lili? When you are thinking about the people that are listening to the show - who do you see? Who are you considering?
Lili Torre
First and foremost, and especially when I first created TDQ, I was thinking of my college self. The version of myself who had been told over and over again,"Iif you can do anything else, do that instead." Who took that as almost a mantra or a test to see if I truly was committed to this career in theater. It really encouraged me to dig my heels in and say, "No, I won't do anything else because I know that even my interest in something else is just testing me to see if I'm really committed to my craft." I so wish that I could go back in time and say to her, "No, don't do that. Listen to the other things that people are telling you!" I had amazing professors in college who told me all the time that I was capable of other things and encouraged me to develop my interest in directing, and voiceovers, and, you know, all of the other interests that I had. And yet, I couldn't hear them because when they would say those things, because I had the limiting belief that if I could do anything else, I should do that instead, when they would say, "Hey, you know, you'd also be a really great director," I would hear, "You shouldn't be an actor." What was meant as such a gift and what could have helped me so much, I took as wounding. It makes me sad to think back on that and to think how narrow-minded I was and how limited my beliefs about my own self were just because of this adage that I had heard. Originally, yeah, I was really creating TDQ for my past self. From there, I think of some of the students who are at my alma mater now who I know listen. Who have reached out to me. I have never even met most of them, and they reach out and tell me that they're listening. I think of my communities here in New York, namely, the Jen Waldman studio, I think of all of my fellow artists in that studio, and I'm always seeking to serve them. But I always go back to my college-self because I know her so well. I know what she needed to hear and I'm always hoping to retroactively heal some of that in myself and in others.
Matthew Carey
That's beautiful. I think about that idea as well. What answers would I like to put in the air for my former self, to maybe grab on to sooner? Other times, I wonder whether I was ready to discover those answers at the time, or like you said whether the answers were there already, but I wasn't ready to see them? Or I wasn't ready to ask that difficult question. But I think it's important that the ideas, the answers are out there so that at the moment that somebody is ready to receive them, there's some way to get them. Whether college Lili was ready to think about a parallel career in the same way that you are now, I think the fact that TDQ now exists and it's out in the world, and it's downloadable for the new college-Lili to discover when she's ready, then I think that's a really powerful thing.
Lili Torre
Yes. I couldn't agree with that more. You're absolutely right. You can't know if you would have been ready but just putting it out there is really all you can do. Another thing that I really believe is you have to see it to be it. I think part of the reason I couldn't imagine myself doing more than one thing is I didn't feel like I was seeing it. That doesn't mean it didn't exist, because I know that there were brilliant artists with parallel careers when I was in college, but I wasn't seeing them. I didn't know who they were. To have a podcast where every week I'm meeting a new one, would have really been the evidence that I needed that that existed and could happen and could even be successful.
Matthew Carey
That idea of 'you have to see it to be it' is really powerful. I know that's something that you're exploring and demonstrating in The Dreaded Question by showing people that are living lives with parallel careers. It's something that has also been a theme of Studio Time in the idea of diversity and showing people different ways of approaching their career. As we talk about podcasting in this conversation, I'm acutely aware that a lot of what we're talking about really applies to any creative endeavor. With that in mind, how do you think about getting your podcast to a wider audience?
Lili Torre
This is interesting to me because to be totally honest with you, it's not something I think about almost at all. I don't really look at the downloads that much. I'll see it every now and then, especially when it hits some sort of milestone. I remember when it hit 10,000 downloads, I was like, "Oh my god," but really, at the end of the day, I just have this belief that whoever needs to hear it will hear it when they're ready. I do implore my audience at the end of most episodes to share it with someone they think needs to hear it. To me, that is the way that this message will get out. Because like you said, I have no way of knowing if and when people are ready to hear this, but people's friends might know that their friend is ready and willing to hear it. That's how I listen to new podcasts. Someone will send it to me and say, "Hey, this made me think of you or I think you'd really enjoy this." I would much rather focus my energy on creating interesting and meaningful content, than slaving away at social media. It is no secret to anyone who knows me that I suck at social media and I really am not someone who loves it. I would rather focus my energy on creating something meaningful than obsessing over how many downloads can I get. I have faith that the message will get out and the people who need to hear it will hear it.
Matthew Carey
I'm taking all that in. I've been thinking about it as well and part of me hides from really trying to put out the word about the podcast. Part of me wants to feel like there's enough episodes in the can that it feels substantial enough to present it to the world. But I know there's part of me that is hiding in doing that. Sometimes it's easier to look at things from a step back when you're listening to somebody else. I can already see that there is potential for Lili Torre to do a college tour really, and take the word out to classes of actors or people looking at getting into the arts about this right now. Tagging back to something you said earlier on, I think that there are some teachers that say, "Hey, you know, you could also think about this, and think about this." But I have a suspicion that a number of teachers in tertiary institutions aren't necessarily going to open your eyes to that, because one of the reasons why they're teaching there is because they didn't want to open their own eyes to it. That doesn't stop them from perhaps being amazing teachers, but when they get into a system, especially if they're there permanently rather than being a guest teacher, then life becomes about *staying* a teacher.
Lili Torre
Yes. Ooh. That is a really interesting noodle. You know, I've always attributed it because, yes, I had an amazing university experience. I went to Millikin University in Illinois. I absolutely loved it. But even within my university program, there were definitely the more forward thinking open minded professors and there were definitely some of the more closed minded. I don't know if I want to say old fashioned, but I do think of that "if you can do anything else do that instead" mindset as pretty old fashioned. There were definitely professors who had more of that lens and that mindset, and I'm sure it's because it was browbeaten into them their whole upbringing. I definitely seek to bring TDQ into universities as a workshop to help not only the students start to broaden their scope and consider what their unique skills have to contribute in other ways other than their artistry. But yeah also, as you said, to help broaden the perspectives of the professors as well. Some of them are stuck in these beliefs that I'm not sure they've ever even questioned. I remember Jen Waldman once said "It is irresponsible to tell an actor that they will ever make money from their art." And as intense as a statement like that may sound, it's true. I think that that is a harsh reality that universities are not taking responsibility for. A great way to support their students would be by bringing in people who have done it, people who are currently doing it, who know what it's like to pursue a career in this field, and who can help their students see the bigger picture of what their skills as artists can bring to the world. This time is unfortunately proof of that fact that it is important to understand the full scope of what you are capable of, and what that might look like as far as what your contribution is to this world. It's definitely something that I've been working on and it's definitely something that I hope to bring to universities in the not so distant future, If and when they're back in session.
Matthew Carey
That's really generous of you. You talked about your social media presence, I was going back to The Dreaded Question Instagram page just before we started talking, because I feel like you're doing that a lot better than what I am. Which isn't saying much, that's not much of a compliment, I'm afraid.
Lili Torre
It was gonna say, "Oh my gosh, no one's ever complimented it."
Matthew Carey
I have thought about how much time and energy to invest in social media and where that can pay off. But the one thing that I really did notice as I scrolled back through the Instagram page with the posts that you've got there - is that it's a simple visual representation of all the work and all that you've created with the podcast. I think that's a really great gallery to have.
Lili Torre
Thank you. I really appreciate that. Sometimes I try to guilt myself and say that I should be putting more energy and time into it. But just like with anything in life, I really try to be intentional with it and use the good old Seth Godin advantages of Who's it for? and What's it for? Do I really care about posting something random every single day? No. What I really want from my social media posts is to let my listeners know who the next guest is, and a little bit of information about them and then I also utilize it as a platform to shout out the successes of some of my guests as well, which is a way that I really, really love to use it. That's pretty much exclusively the way that I use stories - just to shout out the amazing things that my guests are doing after their time on TDQ. To try to force myself to post more than that is, I don't really think worth my time. So I'm thrilled that you got something out of it.
Matthew Carey
It's almost like having the fact that you can put you've been awarded a fellowship on a piece of paper. When somebody doesn't know The Dreaded Question podcast, and you can point them towards that they can scroll through it and they realize they have to scroll back a reasonable way to get to the beginning of your journey there. There's something about having that body of work, that you can just hand to somebody or link to somebody and say "Here, this is what I've done." I think that means something.
Lili Torre
Absolutely. What you're talking about is utilizing social media to tell the story that you want to tell and utilizing it with intention. So yes, I absolutely subscribe to that.
Matthew Carey
I'm going to jump back. This was a thought that I had, and then it fell out of my head but I think it's worth bringing back. The idea of going to a class and telling people about parallel careers. The other thing that you touched on, definitely in the podcast, and I think it's important to think about - is that there doesn't have to be shame if you are not making your entire income from your art. We go into these courses thinking, "Well, this is what's going to be my career. This is what's going to be my profession." There are a lot of people beating themselves up because they can't make a full time living from doing this thing that's their passion. If we can let go of that, then we can live much more happily.
Lili Torre
Oh, absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I would probably take it a step further and say not only eliminating the shame around not being able to make your full living out of being an artist, but instead getting real and getting realistic. If you look at the numbers, there is a very, very small percentage of the artist/actor population that is making a real livable living from being a full time actor, especially a theater actor. There were recently some numbers released by Actors Equity here in the States. There was a little pie chart of how much Equity actors made in (I'm not sure if it was) 2018 or 2019. The numbers were kind of depressing. There was a very small percentage of the pie that was making enough to live on, especially in New York. And I think that's the type of reality check that universities need to be giving to their students. Not to be negative, Nancy, you can't do it, but to help them broaden their scope of what they might do and truly how they might utilize the skills that they are learning in their theater classes at that university. There's more ways than one to use these skills and they're valuable and they are sought after. I think, yes, eliminating the shame is paramount. And then step two is getting real. And I think getting real may actually be the antidote to some of that shame.
Matthew Carey
Amen to getting real. Lili, what's the most unexpected thing you've learned from the process of making your podcast?
Lili Torre
Oh, just so many things. I truly - this is such a silly answer - but truly the most unexpected thing that came out of starting my podcast was how many people said some version of "I love your voice. I love listening to your voice." I remember specifically one day being at Jen Waldman Studio here in New York. I was having a conversation with someone and someone else just popped their head out and was like, "Are you Lili Torre? I recognize your voice!" It was just so funny to me that that was one of the big takeaways for people and, ironically has been very fueling for me in getting a little bit more committed to my parallel career of voiceover work. So that's been super validating. Something else that continues to surprise me is how much people need to hear these episodes. I say this a lot and it probably sounds weird every time I say it, but I am inspired by my own podcast. Editing back the episodes and hearing people's stories and hearing the amazing things that these artists are up to, really is meaningful to me and inspires me and encourages me to keep going. Every single time someone reaches out and says that it's meaningful to them, or even they started their own parallel career because of listening to it. I mean, it shocks me every time as if it's the first time. I don't think that I could have anticipated (a) how impactful it would be for other people, but (b) how impactful that would be for me to know that I'm not alone in this feeling and this curiosity.
Matthew Carey
Do you have an example in mind of somebody who's created a parallel career after listening to the podcast?
Lili Torre
Oh, my gosh, yes, I do. Speaking of my alma mater, a wonderful and amazing young woman who recently graduated from Milliken. We did not overlap at school, but I did actually have the chance to meet her when I went back to Milliken to visit not too long ago. She sent me a message on Instagram and told me that she started a parallel career which actually now I might categorize as a thrival job now that I'm thinking about it, but it's so brilliant. She's an actor, but she also is interested in choreographing and has started to do some work choreographing. So she started her own business, choreographing dance combinations for people to record for their demo reel. So especially for someone who doesn't consider themselves a dancer, who wants to put a little bit of movement on tape, she'll chat with them and figure out what they need and choreograph a few eight counts for them, send them the video of her breaking it down, showing them how to do it and then they can use it for their demo reel and really get something personalized to them that highlights what they do best. So by doing this, not only has she come up with a parallel source of income for herself, but she's also sharpening and practicing her skills as a choreographer which I just think is genius.
Matthew Carey
Absolutely. The idea of bespoke choreography appeals to me greatly. She's getting more of her work out into the world. She's practising, and she's getting paid for it.
Lili Torre
Exactly, right? Genius.
Matthew Carey
Here's a question for you. The Dreaded Question podcast is the name of your show. The dreaded question that you ask the guests on your show, is, "So, what are you up to?" The idea is that that's an anxiety inducing question for a lot of creatives. Not so much in this particular conversation, but I have noticed listening to your show that you use the word *dread* now and then. And so I'm curious to ask, What does dread mean to you? What's it a synonym or a placeholder word for?
Lili Torre
Dread. I would say, anxiety, fear - especially in the context of The Dreaded Question. I don't know if I would categorize it as imposter syndrome or an acute feeling that you are not enough and whatever you are doing is not enough and not interesting. I think it's a difficult feeling to pinpoint and I think it looks like a lot of different things in a lot of different situations. But the thing that I find interesting about dread is that it's typically a feeling before something happens. So before you even know the outcome, before you even know if the thing you're afraid of is going to happen - you've already experienced the fear and anxiety as if it's definitely going to happen.
Matthew Carey
Dread is anticipatory.
Lili Torre
Exactly. And so to me, it is such a waste of an emotion because you're putting yourself through this horrible feeling before you even know if it's necessary. I find it really insidious in that way and unfortunately powerful in that way. So one of my many hopes from The Dreaded Question is - I don't think that we necessarily have the power to eliminate that question from the vocabulary of all of us - but I do think we have the power to control our response and to alleviate that dread and to choose to not anticipate that feeling before it arrives. Then if it does arrive, we'll know how to deal with it.
Matthew Carey
Yeah, I think that we've probably talked around this, but what would you describe as being the antidote to dread?
Lili Torre
I would say the antidote to dread is probably presence and a mindset of possibility. Instead of anticipating what might go wrong, anticipating what might go right and being present enough with yourself and with whoever you're speaking to, to allow yourself to react in the moment. I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but to assume the best intention of the person you're speaking with. To summarize that - it's a combination of presence, possibility and empathy.
Matthew Carey
Perfect. I like that. If dread is about future-thinking and future-anxiety, then another antidote of that is to put yourself back on the hook and bring yourself back into the moment and say, "Rather than worry about what might happen later, where am I now and what can I do at this moment that will do more to get me towards the place I want to go than just waiting for the wrong thing to happen?"
Lili Torre
Yes, absolutely.
Matthew Carey
Lili in the special skills section of your resume, you say, "I am an impeccable recruiter. When I find an establishment that is in alignment with my values, I've been known to send dozens of delightful, qualified candidates their way." Can you give me an example of this?
Lili Torre
Oh, absolutely. I have gainfully employed (especially in my restaurant industry days) I feel like I duped the system. I truly believe that this unique ability of mine is the reason I was able to survive as long as I did in the restaurant industry. There was an amazing restaurant and bar in New York City called Maysville that at one time was probably at least 50% employed by friends of mine. It was just like the best life hack because I was getting paid to go to work and just hang with my friends all day, and it was kind of the best. There were days where we were kind of slow, where I would just catch up with these beautiful and amazing people that I love and adore, and leave work and be like, "Wow, I can't believe I got paid for that." It's definitely something that I think is a unique contribution of mine because I do believe that one of my skills is an ability to see the alignment between people and to understand when two things would fit together beautifully.
Matthew Carey
I guess this is what you're doing with the podcast, too. Bringing in people that you want to work with to have the conversations with you. Then you're sending the conversations out in the form of episodes, which then invite other people to engage with the guests that you've been lifting up.
Lili Torre
Yes, I love that connection. Absolutely.
Matthew Carey
As we get towards the end of this conversation, I wanted to ask how you think about the different ways that people can communicate. My friend, Adam, introduced me to this concept of micro casting. Adam and I rarely text each other. We live in different countries. But what we'll do is we'll send asynchronous voice messages to each other. Every day or so one of us will send a voice message to the other, and then we'll listen to it and we'll respond that way. It's like the longest phone call ever, with the most awkward silences. I decided to use that method to reach out to you and I first reached out to you last year, because I'm so used to hearing your voice, that voice-to-voice seemed a way to communicate with you. It makes me think about the way we communicate differently through different forms of media. The way we communicate via text is different to the way we communicate when we're using our voices. And it's different to the way we communicate and or take in information when we're watching video. How do you think differently about text, audio and video?
Lili Torre
Hmm, this is interesting. I have to say, first of all that you reaching out to me via a voice memo is truly one of my favorite things of all time. I tell people about it all the time because it is just so brilliant, and really encouraged me to be more creative and intentional with my reach outs and take the opportunity to communicate in different ways. So I love that you did that. As far as the ways that we communicate, being a voiceover artist and having a podcast and of course, as a singer, I'm obsessed with the ability of the human voice to tell such a story and communicate so much on its own. I think in this day and age where we are so overstimulated so much of the time, it is easy to undervalue the ability of our voices to communicate the full story without the need for a visual. Text is similar in that it's visual, and there's no auditory component. With both the voice and text, so often we can fill in those blanks for ourselves, which I think really fuels our imagination. If I talk about a day at the beach and say that I could see the beautiful blue waves crashing onto the sand and I could smell the salt in the air and I could hear the seagulls overhead...you may start to visualize that and maybe even smell what I'm talking about and experience what I'm talking about. Similarly, when you read an amazing book that describes things in amazing detail, you feel like you can hear it, you can taste it, you can experience it yourself. What's so amazing about film is it has the ability to bring those senses together at once, and really deliver something a little bit more concrete in that sense. Yet, it's still open to our interpretation. It's still not a fully realized experience until we've interpreted it ourselves. Film can make the choice to incorporate the audio or not. And same with the visual. I could go on and on, but I think that the way that we ignite our different senses through different mediums is fascinating to me, especially as someone who considers herself primarily an auditory learner. It fascinates me how sometimes that helps me in mediums that aren't as visual and sometimes it hurts me. So I find it fascinating.
Matthew Carey
Yeah. We could come back and unpack that for ages. I think in terms of one-to-one communication or trying to express oneself, there is clearly a lot that can be done through the written word. There's been very significant books that have shaped the stories of our life and have shaped our culture. But when I think about in 2020, where we are now, and I think about the way we communicate via words, it's often short phrases that don't always communicate what we really want to say. In fact, we don't use words half the time now. The way we interact with those messages can be so cursory sometimes that we don't necessarily read them fully or take time to appreciate what they're trying to say. When I think about film (video), and I think about sending a story or snap, sometimes the person who's trying to communicate can get so caught up in how they look while they communicate it, that we lose something. We lose some of the connection. And the thing I like about audio, even though, as I'm demonstrating right now, sometimes we can take a little while to get to the point - you hear the words, and you hear the way they're being expressed. And you can see the person that's speaking to you in a way. The other thing about podcasts - the way we listen to podcasts is often with earbuds or headphones. We can be a long way away from each other, but feel like we're having a really intimate chat, as though we're just sitting side by side or facing each other having a conversation. You and I are thousands of kilometres, thousands of miles away, and I could imagine you're sitting across from me and we were just having this conversation over an expensive cup of coffee.
Lili Torre
Exactly.
Matthew Carey
Lili for the people that are meeting you today for the first time, where's the best place for them to find and follow you online?
Lili Torre
If you're interested in finding The Dreaded Question podcast, it's basically everywhere that there are podcasts. But if you want to follow what is clearly what is a very exciting Instagram page, you can look us up at @thedreadedquestion. And you can follow me @lili_torre.
Matthew Carey
Fantastic. Lili, I've been looking forward to speaking to you for ages and I'm really grateful for you putting aside the time to have this conversation. So thank you.
Lili Torre
Thank you. This was so amazing and such a treat for me to not be in the driver's seat today. Thank you for your generous and thoughtful questions.